why such difference in hit ability tween il2 and ah guns?

[pdog_109]

DEMO

[mrfish]

the slightest input in il2 sends the airplane reeling - i have everything turned down to half and its still like an f16.

i have seen gun camera footage and it look pretty steady - i cant keep the planes in li2 trimmed long enough to do anything.

[jihad]

I hit a 109K4 in the oil cooler with (1) 20mm round last night, the fight continued for about 5 minutes before his engine seized and he crashed.

I don't know which planes are modeled in the demo, in the beta version the LA-5 and Yak-3 are monsters, Luftwaffles beware!  

[AKDejaVu]

You're right russian.. I'm probably just missing a whole lot.  It only looks like explosions from the 20mm strikes with the 109.  They are most likely backfires coinciding with my bullets flying by.

 

I'm hitting the planes.  I'm hitting them from all types of angles at close range.  I can see the effects of the strike... I just seldomely see damage.

AKDejaVu

[john9001]

the quote
"dont shoot untill the enemy fills your windscreen"
is from WW 1, by baron von richtoven i think,
so it may or may not apply

[Weave]

Aside from shooting ranges, in all the gun cam footages we've seen from WWII, has anyone seen the plane being shot flipping around in the air (stick stirring) like we have in AH?  

[Fishu]

Sometimes I get those invincibility planes in front..
Once I emptied whole 109 load (no gondolas) into I-16 and it didn't go down until I rammed it.
It was like a swiss cheese after all 20mm and machiengun but nada! (surprisingly no surfaces had fallen off..)

but I did get 4 Yak's in 109 alone.
I shot 3 others easily by shooting the wing with cannon and those fell off or pilot bailed.
4th one took rest what I had.. it just didn't go down.. then I.. well, rammed it  

though, I got other time 4 Yak's again in 109, this time shooting them all and having gondolas. (extra peas always good)
wing fell off from most of them. (one lost rear)


One thing that bugs me, is that unstability.
bank a little and you'll find plane reeling like a boat.
P-39 excels this one.. I hate its stability at anything less than 400kph.

and yeah, never seen in guncam footages such thing happen as tough.


John,

nah, that guy shot when foes eyeballs were visible  

[minus]

remeber my first target shoting in military academy at 17 years old  machine gun and automatic pistol  
at 25 m was not able first time hit even the border of paper target  and with machine guns to hit something at 400 m  take a damn concentration even with single shots  , with burst shoting se ing just the eart flying around and tracers was  just a smoke that porked my  visibility

pepz from usa  i wonder  about all the miracle <should be> you got real liberty practicing  with real guns and i have the feling many pepz saying they are shoting like from movie  and at reality ??????

 objectivly plzzz i em not blind not use any  glases was not the best of best but vas damn pride when first time hit 3 x10 with    7.6 caliber pistol at 25 m  many old  boys not was that sharp  <actualy VZ56 a peace of crap >

plz jsut dont begin whine is it a whine    

[Animal]

Ive also had to face an invincible Yak1

I was DIRECTLY behind him, he was flying straight, I was blasting him with the 109f4 2xmg and 1x20mm and I could see like 10 explosions before he finally started leaking smoke, and around 4 more explosions before he finally broke a wing.


hehehe.. I hope this is a bug and not a feature.

[bloom25]

I think it likely that AH is closer to reality, but with the icons long range shooting becomes easier.  If you fly without icons it becomes MUCH harder to hit at long range, so you have to get close.

I have some pictures of a 109g under attack by a typhoon.  The typhoon landed 4 20mm hits and the 109g was leaking fuel and/or on fire in 4 locations.

[ra]

Slightly OT but it doesn't seem like IL-2 models every round like AH does, only the tracer round.  Strafe the water with your cowl guns and you will see that only tracer rounds cause splashes.

ra

[Kratzer]

I haven't noticed that... but I've noticed that the tracer trajectory seems to decay quickly, and at further ranges, the tracer will fall behind the target while the actual round are causing damage to it.

I know that the Il-2 damage model is very complex - and that unless you really hit something important, you aren't going to do much damage, and your rounds will just pass on through.  I remember reading that Il-2 doesn't use a hit bubble - you have to actually hit the model to hit it - though it seems that AH might be the same, since I have a hard time hitting anything in AH too.  (Actually, I find AH gunnery a lot more difficult...)  as for cannon rounds not causing a lot of damage, I've been told in various discussions that the earlier M-Geschoss rounds could explode on the surface of an aircraft without doing a lot of actual damage... maybe we are seeing this modeled in the 1942 aircraft?

Not sure what it means in the end, but Il-2 gunnery seems to make a lot more sense to my mind - less laser beam-ish - but who is to say if that isn't just personal preference... I've never shot an aerial cannon, so I have little frame of reference apart from games, as is the case for 99% of us.

[rosco-]

For one thing, when you hit planes with mgs you dont see hit sprites, little pieces fall off that arent apparent unless you are in real close. I think in il2 you hit with more rounds than you think. Also a plane can be fataly wounded and still fly. If you do a mission 1 vs 1 and keep your eye on the con you see him kinda "slump"  over and glide into the ground. This is the sims most awesome feature.

 Aslo ive been flying AH for 2 years and il2 "which is still beta" for 2 days. Even if you could compare the two its way to early to do so.

[streakeagle]

"I opened fire only when the whole windshield was black with the enemy... at minimum range... it doesn't matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver."
Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, GAF
world's leading ace, Luftwaffe
352 victories, WWII

"You can have computer sights or anything you like, but I think you have to go to the enemy on the shortest distance and knock him down from point-blank range. You'll get him from in close. At long distance, it's questionable."
Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, GAF
world's leading ace, Luftwaffe
352 victories, WWII

"I had no system as such. It is definitely more in the feeling side of things that these skills develop. I was at the front five and a half years, and you just get a feeling for the right amount of lead."
Lt. General Gunther Rall GAF
3rd leading Luftwaffe ace, WWII
275 victories

"As to gunnery passes, the best was when you dived with speed, made one pass, shot an opponent down quickly, and pulled back up... The secret was to do the job in one pass; it could be from the side or from behind and I usually tried to open fire at about 150 feet."
Major Erich Rudorffer, Luftwaffe
7th leading ace, WWII
222 victories (13 on one mission!)

I think anyone with more than 200 kills knows what they are talking about!

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Thomas B. "Tommy" McGuire, USAAF
2nd leading U.S. ace WWII
38 victories

See, even beginners have the right idea!

For reference, all of these great quotes and more are in "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert L. Shaw, probably the single best source for learning and understanding every aspect of air to air combat.

[AKDejaVu]

Slightly OT but it doesn't seem like IL-2 models every round like AH does, only the tracer round. Strafe the water with your cowl guns and you will see that only tracer rounds cause splashes.

Firstly, they don't have splashes.

I don't think the rest is correct either.  When using the explosive 20 mm rounds, you definately know when you've hit the plane.  I can't imagine they wouldn't model each of those explosions.

AKDejaVu