why such difference in hit ability tween il2 and ah guns?

[hblair]

I think I read about 2 years ago where pyro or HT said Aces High's planes are all modeled the correct size, where they were made artificially large in warbirds...

[pdog_109]

DeeZCamp, don't even try to convince them. I flew the 109G2 in Aces High....LOL "Offline opponetns yawn" Well IL-2 has MP and when do you see these 200 people in 1 place at one time hmm? If its not AH or you don't like you.. you get flamed!
BTW DeeZCamp how do you see with the mouse pan view? Argh its to hard for me.

[DB603]

S!

 I won't compare which is better of these 2 sims. I play them both and ENJOY doing that. It just feels like communities of ANY sim are quite narrowminded in some cases. If it doesn't have this or that, then it is crap or not realistic blahblah. The arguments can go on for ages without any result.
 Trying to compare graphics of these 2 sims is next to ridiculous. Other is barely a 19 meg download and still supports decent 3D. The other is a boxed sim with a CD filled with 3D models etc. They just can't be compared. The whole disucssion would be useless, since requirements are so different.
 As far realism is considered, neither of these even get close to real. A PC sim just can't simulate every single detail without choking and puking out it's parts. And the Cray's calculate for days, even weeks, to get something simulated at high accuracy. Don't expect realism from a PC sim, since that is what it can't offer. Sounds a bit strict and scoped, but all sims on PC are JUST games to entertain us.
 My bottom line is, that either game You play, You enjoy doing it. Ain't the product good if You like it and it's challenges? Realism, graphics etc. have nothing to do with it IMO.
 My 2 cents..feel free to flame me  

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: DB603 ]

[Toad]

Originally posted by pdog_109:
If its not AH or you don't like you.. you get flamed!

No, I don't think that's it at all.

It's looking more like if you don't immediately download the demo beta and swear you've seen the second coming of you-know-who....  THEN you get flamed for not immediately converting to the "true faith".

Most guys with a true interest in WW2 ACM will give it a look, sooner or later. I know I will.

I'm deeply, deeply sorry if my IL timetable doesn't meet your expectations and wounds your psyche.  

[Westy MOL]

"It's looking more like if you don't immediately download the demo beta and swear you've seen the second coming of you--know-who....  THEN you get flamed for not immediately converting to the "true faith"."

EXACTLY!!!  


And... "when do you see these 200 people in 1 place at one time hmm?"

 Well, certainly not 200 in one 25square mile grid in the MA that's for sure. Scenarios? Hell yes.  But either is sure more than 16 or 32 in "1 place at one time". Every night I fly I take off from a base with 8 or 9 MOL and with a similar number of friendlies we head for an intercept of attack against liek numebers of enemy. If there is a CV involved then there is more folks when you count in the shore bombardment, pt boats and mannable ack guns. All the while this is going on more folks are heading off in gv's or other strikes, attacks or furballs. Most often there is a different group of MOL doing the same as the group I am with but elsewhere on the same map - but we listen to each other on squad channel or RW. That goes for any number of seperate "battles" all over the map.

 All of which makes for a richer environment (for me now., just my opinion) than any player hosted 16/32 multiplay can do. BTW, anyone even know if more than a few folks can fly togther. The 16/32 hasn't worked for anyone I know. Even RogueSpear and other similar "MP" games choke when they get to about 10 players.

 Westy

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Badger]

Just my 2 cents from a player who participated in AH from the inception of their beta until the Fall of last year, plus the entire IL2 beta process.

IL2 is primarily a wonderful "boxed" simulation with tremendously enjoyable and challenging A/I routines.  It will not be a serious MMP contender without improving the network coding and security for handling more than 32 players, not from a 'how many can you see at a time point of view', but rather the ability to handle a larger sense of immersion across broad theaters of operations in scenarios.  The quick and dirty furball flyer (like the AH HtoH flyer) will enjoy IL2 even with its 32 plane overall limitation.  To grow to become a serious MMP challenge to AH, Oleg needs to build in several host options to eliminate players from using automatic padlocks, cockpit graphics removal capability and other features such as multiple external views for all planes.  I suspect that there will also be an immediate and growing IL2 security problem with player hacks of models (109's with F16 FM's etc), similar to the problems experienced with all versions of FA (including the current closed beta testing FA3), as well as CFS2.  I'm sure that Oleg (very talented and all round nice guy) would be able to expand the network component to become a secure MMP simulation, but I think there are a whole lot more complex issues involved in doing that then most people realize.

AH is an excellent MMP combat flight simulation.  It is not a "boxed" off-the-shelf distributed product loaded with superb A/I.  It is about large numbers of real people against real people, but most of all it's about a sense of community who enjoy a common hobby and an arena based on-line entertainment medium to fantasize "what if" they had been there.  Its competitive challenges from IL2 are not from the technology within the current version or Fall commercial release, but rather about where Bluebyte may possibly take IL2 from a marketing perspective in the future.  IMHO, AH is currently the best overall MMP arena oriented environment for air combat simulation buffs on the Internet.  The new lower price only enhances that position and attracts a broader demographic of potential players.  If and when IL2 achieves MMP technology parity with AH, then I think direct comparisons are fair and in order.  At that point with all other things being equal, the choice issue will become purely about subjective personal preferences and the price point each offer their service at.

Neither currently support Apple systems , although IL2 optionally permits the user to select OpenGL versus DirectX as the primary graphics engine.  Interestingly enough, I find the OpenGL superior on all my in-house Nvidia based systems from a performance and graphics appearance point of view.  With an OpenGL capability, Oleg could easily migrate IL2 to Macs (or others OS's) which would add a potential 29% to 33% increase in numbers of paying users, who are interested in flying computer based combat flight simulations.

FWIW

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Badger ]

[Voss]

Real Life. Hmm, mentioned more then once I see.

DeeZ, in real life I have to juggle between earning the almighty dollar, working on personal projects that require a ton of time on the computer and no flying, learning airframe and powerplant maintenance, and working on my commercial ticket. I pay more then $100/hr to fly:

 

...and for some reason I like that more then your silly idea of flying IL2, also.

Aces High offers me multiplayer flight with radio comms (via Roger Wilco), and a squadron to support strategic aims. I'm not likely to try IL2.

Now go away, and quit your whining.

 

[funkedup]

It takes about 0 brain power here folks to understand and know what is more realistic.

Apparently

[highflyer]

lol

[Kweassa]

Isn't this thread supposed to be a simple one?

 I mean, there's a new kid on the block. We take a look at 'im, size 'im out, and talk about it later when we are amongst ourselves. If the kid has some cool things which might be better to learn than ignore, hell yeah, it might look silly all our friends suddenly praising and chanting the 'new style'.. it might even seem pathetic to some.

 But in the long run, its definately better to move on, learn and input new things.. isn't it? So, what is the fuss about?

 The fuss should be strictly about either "IL-2 has something more harder, more realistic aspect which might help change some of the things some people didn't like in AH" or "No, IL-2, while interesting, is just something different, not enough data to say it is MORE realistic than AH".

 Comparing some things relying on which very little data and experience we have. Trying to make sense through this-or-that sorts of logical 'sleuthing'   ...
 
 I can't believe some people here are beginning to sound like: "Oh yeah? IL-2 more realistic than AH? So what? I like AH the way it is now. Let us not change it".

 And all this time I thought, though preferences of engagement and strategical realism differ, the AH community took pride in 'our' AH always one step ahead of other sims in realism. IL-2, to some people, seem to be better in some realistical aspects of AH.

 So the pride is shattered? Is it rejection or conversion? I thought everybody who likes AH would naturally think "if there is a possibilty of better flight modeling, what the hell, let's see it in AH".

 Guess I was wrong  

ps) So, is IL-2 more realistic or not? The clobbering around here keeps on digressing into something of dispute between "I like AH the way it is" and "I like to see it changed".. Let's just talk and dispute about whether it is more realistic or not. Because, ultimately, it seems logical we take into AH the 'more realistic' thing. The thing we love about AH - accurate FMs and performances.

 Cheers, let the slug-fest continue  

[Mathman]

This whole thing is ridiculous.  Like Badger so eloquently stated, it is pretty much pointless to compare the two games.  How can you compare a boxed sim that supports multi-player with a sim that was designed specifically for multiplayer?

Yes, they both have WW2 planes, tanks, boats, etc in them.  But that is about it.  It is kind of like comparing Falcon 3 with Strike Commander (from waaaaaaaaay back when the 386-486 was the king of the hill).  F3 was a sim of modern air combat (my fav all time jet sim) and SC was a story based game like Wing Commander, but with modern jets.  Some parts were similar, but both were very different games with different priorites.

If you want to argue and say that the potential is there for Il-2 to have MMOL component, fine.  But until it does have this, remember, there is no way that you can say that it beats AH at what AH does.  Just like nobody here can say that AH beats Il-2 at what it does.  Also, the thing to remember about potential is this:  WW2OL has potential (please note that I am NOT saying that Il-2 is like WW2OL, just referring to saying that Il-2 will have great multi because of potential is a load of crap, like WW2OL).

For the slow people out there (and you know who you are, you ride the short bus to school), I will make a simple metaphor for you.  Apples and oranges people.  Both may be fruit, but they are different types of fruit.  

Oh well, this is completely lost, I am sure, on several people here.

-math

btw, Funked, that is one of the best replies I have ever seen.  

[AKSWulfe]

Do not have two windows open at the same time.
-SW

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

[Kweassa]

Er, Math, I think the point behind all this wild text is "IL-2 has better gunnery. Let's implement it to AH".

  I don't think the fight is about(though some people, admittably, seem to want to drag it that way) comparing as a whole, "IL-2 is better than AH", or vice versa....

 Although.. come to think of it... Deez did make some very controversial remarks concerning the 'comparability issue', didn't you Deez   ?!

 I'm sure he doesn't mean that IL-2, as a whole, beats the crap outta AH. Hmm?  

[highflyer]

What deez means is that the day, if it comes, Il2 becomming a MMOG. Aces needs to up the ante', because they may get knocked off the block by the new kid in town.  

[Cobra]

Originally posted by highflyer:
What deez means is that the day, if it comes, Il2 becomming a MMOG. Aces needs to up the ante', because they may get knocked off the block by the new kid in town.  

I remember the same thing being said before B17II and WWIIOnline were released  

Heh, and Aces ups the ante anyway....go figure.

Cobra