Author Topic: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss  (Read 1694 times)

Offline stantond

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« on: December 24, 2006, 02:35:54 PM »
Attached is a ~2mb film where, towards the end (at ~5.00 min), a reversal turn is done (not by me of course) where a slight dip in altitude occurs but no speed loss!  Can someone clue me in on how to do this maneuver?  For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do a 'bat turn', but I have it on film and it can be done!  

Based on the film, there is only about 2k altitude to the deck.  This has always freaked me out to watch someone do this.  One thing I noticed is that the turn begins at about 5:24 in the film and by 5:30 the turn is mostly done.  It looks like an altitude loss of 200-400 yards occurs.  Are high g's for <10 seconds the trick?  Is this something captured on film, but is really an issue with internet lag?  This isn't the first time this has happened.  Any clues are appreciated.


Regards,

Malta


Rascal Turn
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 03:09:24 PM by stantond »

Offline Balsy

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Re: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2006, 03:11:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
Attached is a ~2mb film where, towards the end (at ~5.00 min), a reversal turn is done (not by me of course) where a slight dip in altitude occurs but no speed loss!  Can someone clue me in on how to do this maneuver?  For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do a 'bat turn', but I have it on film and it can be done!  

Based on the film, there is only about 2k altitude to the deck.  This has always freaked me out to watch someone do this.  One thing I noticed is that the turn begins at about 5:24 in the film and by 5:30 the turn is mostly done.  It looks like an altitude loss of 200-400 yards occurs.  Are high g's for <10 seconds the trick?  Is this something captured on film, but is really an issue with internet lag?  This isn't the first time this has happened.  Any clues are appreciated.


Regards,

Malta


Rascal Turn


film doesnt make it past 4 minutes. it quits. on me

Offline 2bighorn

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 03:15:06 PM »
:huh Even if there would be 'bat like move' I wouldn't tell you because you don't need to know. You were running accross half the sector then hiding in ack...

This film was the most horrifying 5 minutes of my AH experience ever!

Sorry, can't tell anything else...

Offline stantond

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Re: Re: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 04:39:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Balsy
film doesnt make it past 4 minutes. it quits. on me


Me too.  Sorry for the inconvenience.   It's fixed now.

Yes, I will run to ack on occasion.  It's how I play the game.


Regards,

Malta.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 05:03:28 PM by stantond »

Offline Blagard

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2006, 05:24:15 PM »
Seems to me you just made all the mistakes and the other guy got you!
No "Bat turn" there. Watch it slow motion and check the speed.  This was a good film of Barrel Roll Defense! And you still had the 50mph on him when he levelled , but you panicked, turned and lost your E advantage. Still panicked and hit the trees!

Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!

Offline Lusche

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2006, 05:39:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blagard

Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!


I usually use the F5 view for that. Turn Trails on and use F8 and zoom to get best camera position.
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Offline Blagard

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2006, 06:05:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
I usually use the F5 view for that. Turn Trails on and use F8 and zoom to get best camera position.


Thanks, that shows if great especially when slow motion!

Just trim to the last 60 seconds, thats all worth watching unfortunately.

Edit
Also if you double click Rascal you will see from his perspective. I never realised you could view from the other plane until today, most interesting!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 06:40:28 PM by Blagard »

Offline stantond

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2006, 06:49:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blagard
Seems to me you just made all the mistakes and the other guy got you!
No "Bat turn" there. Watch it slow motion and check the speed.  This was a good film of Barrel Roll Defense! And you still had the 50mph on him when he levelled , but you panicked, turned and lost your E advantage. Still panicked and hit the trees!

Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!



Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how  one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude?  Using trails you can see the plane maneuvering while I am not (use fixed external view for the other plane).  It happens fast.  Only seven seconds for the maneuver.

Yes, I panicked when he reversed and came back like that.  I tried to repeat his maneuver but couldn't.  Any one have any clues on how to repeat that maneuver (the one between 5:23 and 5:30 in the film)?

You see, part of the reason I panicked was because I was now in gun range with him on my six. In fact, if you look at the film from his plane he was firing at me all that time!  Other than pulling a barrel roll, which probably wouldn't have worked, a hard break was all I could think of at the time.  Unfortunately, at tree got part of my wing.

What I should have done, and normally would, was pull into a spiraling climb.  I was out of WEP from the beginning of the engagement so I proably wouldn't have survived the sprial climb.  But, that's what I would have typically done.  If you look at his plane at 5:36, his nose was near pointing at my plane with a similar airspeed and altitude.  About twelve seconds earlier, he was pointing in the opposite direction 3k out.  

You see, that is what the subject of this thread was about.  A high (mispelled) speed turn reversal "Bat Turn".  Where the term "Bat Turn" came from the campy (but still entertaining) Batmobile 180 degree turns.  That's what I am interested in getting "help" with, although I would prefer indifference to what some consider help.  Where's Shane when you need him?


Regards,

Malta

Offline Schatzi

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2006, 06:55:42 PM »
Malta,


I cannot find any "bat turn" in the film.


But I can point out what I think is your major mistake throughout all the film. Energy management.

Every time you look back to see a red icon (almost no matter what the altitude, attitude and speeds involved are) you immediatly get fully defensive and into negative E maneuvering (nose low).

Starting out with the very first merge. Yes, you were in the "worse" situation there - ie you had less E... but going nose level/low to extend only worsened your situation.  You were doing right on diving a little to deny him vertical separation, but after that, you shouldve immediatly reversed into him. Your opponent took the opportunity you were giving by extending to get on your high six about 2 K out and started climbing while you were nose low. Also, you were pulling a turn while starting your extension, bleeding even more E.

Later, when you reversed into him, you banked 120 deg and turned into him - right move, but you were doing it full throttle, causing you to speed up even more on the way down. More speed = more Gs = more Energy loss on the reversal. Use your throttle!

You still managed to get him to overshoot, but then either panicked or lost sight (or both) and dove low for ack and the deck.... (E loss!!). You were in the start of a rolling scissor and probably couldve won it (at least you started with an advantage). You gave that up by extending low into ack. Stay with the rolling scissor next time.

The opponent also made a mistake at that point, following you down into ack... and almost paid the price for it.

Right after your snapshot, you follow him in a flat turn (even little nose low). That not only costs you a lot of E, but also increases closure rate and resulting in you overshooting (and getting shot at) in the next turn. Yoyoing off (or at least make a climbing turn and then adjust further maneuvering to your opponents flight path) wouldve been the better option here. Again, E management and closure!!

After the resulting snapshot of your opponent, the next mistake: youre tunring AWAY from him, not only sparing him the possible overshoot but also presenting him even more angle on you. Besides, youre again in a slight nose low flat turn, bleeding off E. Always turn into your opponent - unless you have the opportunity (read: Energy) to run.

Now your opponent finally does the smart thing and extends away from ack (even though he does it at the expense of giving up any advantage. Remember, not long ago, the situation was pretty much reversed... now youre on his six, 2 K out, more or less same E.

Now your opponent reverses into you. (Maybe thats the "bat move" you meant?). I cant check on your film, but id BET he chopped throttle dropping flaps for a second reversing - no problem whatsoever in a F4U at 6K. If you watch his speed and altitude... hes loosing alt, but not speeging up in any considerable way. My guess would be he even was full rudder to help him roll/nose low and also to assist him managing his speed.


You were doing the WORST you could ever do in that situation. Following him down in a SplitS going full throttle. He DID bleed of E pulling that reversal... your opportunity to rope/spiral climb him (watch your opponents second turn and judge his E loss - ie tightness of turn - to decide which one of the "rope options" is the better one).

Think of this moment as a merge. Hes cutting in under you (vertical separation!). You are splitS-ing after him.... nose low, full throttle, speeding up, almost pulling into blackout. If you watch him, he is lead turning you, on his way up. All he has to do is get you into his look up view (lift vector pointed at you) and roll into you.


Again, you were starting to do the right thing (really on the defensive now) and started a break turn. But you missed the opportunity of him overshooting twice (tip: Mouse pointer on gun pipper - any time and any view hes ahead of that, hes overshot) to go vertical ("barrel roll") over and up into behind him. That wouldve left you either with him in your gunsight or at least it a barrel roll with a fighting chance of getting him.

The rest after that is history as they say.



So, wrapping all this up into one sentence: You were too much on the defensive, poor E and throttle management cost you a kill to an opponent that made his share of mistakes.

Another thing i noticed.... you were watching him too little. Youre looging straight ahead, checking where he is every now and then where actually the reverse would be better. Watch him closely and check your own heading every now and then (especially at that ALT, where theres little chance of obstacles in the way).


I know this probably isnt what you were looking for posting this thread, but i still hope it helps you anyway.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 07:36:05 PM by Schatzi »
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Offline TW9

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 07:19:20 PM »
lol what was the point in even flying that sorty? i mean as soon as u engaged someone u got so scared u ran to your base.. and when u were chasing him once he turned to re-engage u tried to run again.. i dont understand this at all. whats the point in even playing?
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Offline Mace2004

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 07:44:28 PM »
Corner for an F-4U is about 280.  Corner gives best turn rate so he's able to get his nose around quickly.  He sustains his speed because he overbanks and goes slightly nose low.  Also, there are actually two turns since he levels his wings for a second or two during which he accelerates a bit and then overbanks again for the second turn.  Can't tell how many G's he's pulling since you don't get the blackout in the viewer but it's an easy enough maneuver.
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Offline Schatzi

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 07:57:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how  one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude?  



Watch the film again. The time it takes RASCAL to reverse heading 180 degrees, he has lost roughly 1K of altitude.


I could just reproduce this in the TA in an F4U-1 (which I believe you were in): chopping throttle to idle and applying some rudder (one time even without dropping any flaps). Its 3 am here, ill review and post film tomorrow if you wish.
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Offline Lusche

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2006, 08:00:19 PM »
Odd: Just like Balsy, I couldnīt get the film to play past 4 mins. Neither normal playback, nor jumping behind the 4 mins threshhold did work,
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 08:31:10 PM »
Malta, as Mace mentioned he maximized his turn rate by dipping nose low, he lost roughly 6 to7 mph and 700 to 800 ft of alt ( Instantaneous Turn ), you aparently misjudged his E thinking he pulled a break turn and you decided to climb to draw him up maybe thinking spiral climb him, but realized he was still fast.  At this time, he actually uses throttle control to not over shoot you and it is very noticeable in the film as his speed drops.  Being roughly 2.2/3K away from your opponent it is sometimes hard to see just what their orientation is. This being the case one uses his best educated guess.......as the film ends it shows a misjudgement of the situation....... as for the "bat turn" in question no need to chop throttle, and one would not want to. You keep full throttle and even WEP with slight noselow to maintain your speed when reversing in this instance.


I could see how it might look like a hard turn when playing at regular speed being in a back and forth switching fight ( advantage switching )

there are numerous mistakes  and missed opportunities by both of ya'll in that film, but we all make mistakes.......

better luck next time ~S~


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Offline humble

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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 08:39:27 PM »
he lost an awful lot of speed....at least 60 mph maybe more. When he opened fire on you you had a 100mph advantage.

A couple of things stand out. All of which are easily correctable....

1) You seem to have no basic grasp of ACM
2) You do not use views effectively at all
3) you fly in a defensive reactionary mode

Rascals reversal was pretty typical...well flown but by no means extraordinary. Basically you had no view and made no adjustment. Had you simply flown straight he probably would have gotten no damage on you due to the quickly expanding range....

I'd be more then happy to work with you on the hog anytime you want....

But this is all about what you didn't do and has nothing to do with the other guy.

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