Author Topic: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss  (Read 1616 times)

Offline Blagard

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 08:46:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how  one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude?  Using trails you can see the plane maneuvering while I am not (use fixed external view for the other plane).  It happens fast.  Only seven seconds for the maneuver.


OK I understand what you mean now but the turn seems normal to me. Just double click the name Rascal in the window to the right of the View and you will see it from the other F4u perspective. He is already turned a little off line before doing a break turn left nose low. He loses speed and Alt before coming out level then breaking a little left again before reversing into the barrel roll to right.

I tried the same turn at similar speed alt in an F4u with the same result in turn speed. Only a small file to check. So no real change to my earlier comments

Edit - link reset (Crosses fingers)
F4u_turn.ahf
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 09:06:32 PM by Blagard »

Offline TW9

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2006, 09:08:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser



Side Note: if you do not have helpful or positive comments / suggestions , please do not clutter up the place........




really any advice would be mute since he'll probably run from any fights like he did this time instead of implementing any advice we give the guy..

best advice i can give is next time stick it out and fight.. only way to learn is to fight it out
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there would'nt even be anyone --------- left .
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Edit2: BAN the ass-hat. That's not skuzzy, that's a tard named TW9

Offline TequilaChaser

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2006, 09:16:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TW9


best advice i can give is next time stick it out and fight.. only way to learn is to fight it out


thats some good advice TW
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Widewing

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Re: Re: Re: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2006, 09:25:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond


Yes, I will run to ack on occasion.  It's how I play the game.
 


To be honest, everything possible to screw up, you screwed up....

Why run for the ack? You had every opportunity to engage with no disadvantage. In fact, Rascal's speed on the initial merge would have worked against him.

When you did maneuver, you consistently turned nose low, while Rascal typically went nose high. Turning nose low increases your speed, at the cost of widening your turn radius. When Rascal reversed after extending away from the base (nothing special about his reverse, other than a lot of yawing due to what I believe is a twisty stick), you did nearly a Split-S off the merge and positioned yourself perfectly for Rascal to drop right in behind.

I noticed that both you and Rascal had a hard time keeping each other in sight. Nothing will get you killed faster than losing sight of the enemy.

Instead of concentrating on killing Rascal, you were most worried about being shot down. Other that losing sight of the enemy, few things will get you in deeper trouble than to flying with a defensive mindset. My advice to any AH2 pilot is not to worry about what the other guy is try to do to you, but to focus on what you are going to do to him. The best defense is always to attack. Force the enemy to maneuver and you create the possibility that he will make a mistake, or at least you will discover how good he is or isn't.

Here's a suggestion: Come to the Training Arena and spend some time with a Trainer. You need to have some other mindset beyond running for your life. If you like the F4Us, get some time learning what they are capable of and build some confidence. Likewise, you will learn how to handle a merge without panic.

To be blunt, a skilled F4U driver would have evaporated Rascal within seconds of the merge. He showed little aggression until after he saw you were not interested in engaging. Had you simply made a climbing turn to the left, dumping a notch or two of flaps, you would have cut across his turn and been in a firing position within 10 seconds. He didn't even know where you were, he was looking all around for you.

To Rascal's credit, we was at least somewhat aggressive thereafter, but you allowed that.

Schatzi is absolutely on the mark when she says that poor E management, equally poor throttle and flap management and a lack of aggression did you in from the start. That and not having a constant visual on Rascal.

Don't get down on yourself though. Everything you did wrong serves as a lesson. Most of these things can be corrected, or at least mitigated if you want to make the effort. This is why you should spend some time with a trainer in the TA, where making a mistake has no consequences beyond some non-lethal holes. Make a mistake and simply try it again and again, until you get it right. The TA is a place where you can gain experience without feeling bad about yourself. Heck, if you're not augering from time to time, you're not trying hard enough. Plus, some of the best F4U drivers in the game are Trainers. There are also some non-trainer volunteers who are outstanding pilots and are always willing to work with any player. You can always look up Nomak for a DA session. Nomak is an excellent teacher and a heck of a pilot (and a damn fine fellow too). Put in some effort and you'll reap rewards immediately.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline stantond

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2006, 07:55:48 AM »
Ok,

I figured out how to make that maneuver, it's really not that tough.  

As far as the fight, yes I *know* I was not at my best and made many mistakes.  The first of which was climbing out on wep (and not realizing it).  Perhaps it's psychological, but I tend to be not so agressive without any wep in the F4U-1.

Regarding running from the fight, I prefer to think of it as extending to an advantage.  Wasn't there a fight going on?  From what I could tell the fight lasted over six minutes.  I really don't understand these comments.

Yes, I made mistakes.  One mistake I didn't make, however, was immedatley fighting at an energy disadvantage for a quick death.  Could I have fought better? Yes.

However, at least I got a ping on him before he extended (or some might say 'ran away').  Plus, I figured out a new maneuver!  I'll take this film down, since it seems to serve no purpose.


Regards,

Malta

Offline Schatzi

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2006, 10:26:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond

Regarding running from the fight, I prefer to think of it as extending to an advantage.



You were extending to an even greater DISadvantage.


Quote
Yes, I made mistakes. One mistake I didn't make, however, was immedatley fighting at an energy disadvantage for a quick death.



Actually the E advantage was hopping from one to the other in the fight. There were times in between where youd managed to even out (if not gain) the advantage.




But I guess since you dont want to take our analysis/tips and well-meant advice, i guess taking down the film IS the best option.
21 is only half the truth.

Offline 2bighorn

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2006, 11:02:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Side Note: if you do not have helpful or positive comments / suggestions , please do not clutter up the place........

TC, when commenting, sometimes harsh words are the only option, like in case of crime. Behavior in this film, in AH terms, is nothing short of the crime.

I looked at the film in order to explain the mysterious maneuver. I had to endure 6 minutes of virtual cowardice just to find out to be simple 180 degree nose down turn.

Malta is not a new player. He's been around for years. He didn't care to learn the basics for all these years and now he blames his misfortune on some 'bat move'. With all of his experience he could have figured that turn all by himself.

In his case, it is not matter of skills but attitude. Lack of skills, well, that is easy to fix,  but attitude?

After all the analyzing, explaining and suggesting by knowledgeable folks, he dismisses them all in his last post, saying pretty much what he did was OK and critique was uncalled for.

So, unless I am proven wrong I'll stick with what I've said in my first post.

Offline Mace2004

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2006, 11:58:08 AM »
Actually, it's not a good idea to personalize a critique.  Helpful criticism is great but we really don't need the extra adjectives that don't contribute to the discussion.  As a matter of fact, dispite what the movie showed, TOPGUN goes out of it's way to de-personalize critiques.  Instead of "you did A which was stupid when you should have done B" they even go so far as to boil down a debrief into "the F-14 did A when it might have been better to do B".  Also, please remember that there are no absolute answers in ACM.  In some people's opinion, it might have been smarter to do A than B but that is just opinion, maybe informed opinion but opinion none the less.

A small, but important point and just my 2cents.

Mace
Mace
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Offline RAS

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2006, 02:10:04 PM »
Thanks Schatzi, Tequila, and Widewing for your interpretation of the fight.

Am always looking for ways to improve and I made plenty of oopsies in that fight....especially getting too close to the ack and losing 3 guns to it.

Thanks again for your input folks.

Good luck and good hunting Malta


RASCAL

Offline Benny Moore

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2006, 09:42:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Schatzi
More speed = more Gs = more Energy loss on the reversal. Use your throttle!


I think I just had an epiphany at those words, Shatzi.  Thank you.  Until now, I have been under the impression that throttling back under any conditions equates to an energy loss.  Therefore, I have always avoided throttling back at all costs.  Even though I know that throttling back in a high speed turn makes a tighter and faster turn, I've been not doing it, choosing instead the slower method of removing excess speed by simply raising my nose.  But now, I think I get it - while throttling back may lose speed and altitude, the gain in angles can be far greater than the loss of energy.  Is that right?

Offline Clutz

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2006, 10:04:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond


  I'll take this film down, since it seems to serve no purpose.


Regards,

Malta


I would like to see the film please. :)

Offline Benny Moore

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2006, 10:05:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Instead of concentrating on killing Rascal, you were most worried about being shot down. Other that losing sight of the enemy, few things will get you in deeper trouble than to flying with a defensive mindset. My advice to any AH2 pilot is not to worry about what the other guy is try to do to you, but to focus on what you are going to do to him. The best defense is always to attack. Force the enemy to maneuver and you create the possibility that he will make a mistake, or at least you will discover how good he is or isn't.


Several years ago, there was a very good pilot who would easily destroy me in any fight.  I'll call him "Bob."  I never did manage to get anywhere near shooting him down until one day when he entered the server and I did not know it.  I engaged him, not knowing who it was, and proceeded to carry out my usual routine of maneuvers which I used at the time on most pilots.  This time, I not only held my own but steadily gained advantages throughout the fight.  I was in control of the fight the entire time; it was no simple mistake on his part or fortunate move on mine.  I ended the fight stuck fast to his six oh clock position, and when I shot him down I was incredulous to see his name in the chat bar.  From then on, it was back to the old way - him constantly on my tail chewing away large pieces of my ship.  I don't think I ever got him again.

It seems to me that a large part of duelling is psychological.  When there's a certain pilot or ship that you're afraid of, chances are you're going to do poorly against him or it, even if you as a pilot are quite capable of dealing with it.  I think that Widewing hit the cartridge on the rim when he said that a defensive mindset does you no favors in a fight.  I'm certain that it is responsible for my losses more than my actual flying ability in the cases of certain pilots whom I respect and certain aircraft which I dread.  Essentially, I think I lose these fights before ever they happen.

Offline Blagard

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Hight speed 'Bat turn' with little (or no) speed loss
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2006, 10:12:24 AM »
Benny,

No doubt Schatzi will post a reply, but throttle back conditions depend entirely on the situation. i.e. when below corner speed I doubt there would be many circumstances to throttle back other than perhaps to force an overshoot or for a kill shot. For instance a high Yo Yo's is in part to get your speed down to enable a better turn speed without wasting that speed energy (you convert to height in the short term) of course being able to roll in the vertical helps in the corners to!. That would usually be a better move than either a high speed flat turn or chopping the throttle to get to corner speed.

In the reversal going down vertical from a fairly high speed to start off with, and trying to pull out at full bore, it will take you lower than if you ease off the throttle and you not only will you pull out quicker, but higher to, maintaining potential energy. So yes in that situation there is an angles improvement and maybe a no worse energy situation overall.

If you are in the vertical (down) dead slow, perhaps after having stalled, then you would want to apply full power.

Offline B@tfinkV

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bat turn?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2006, 10:59:31 AM »
whats a bat turn?? :D
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Offline Blagard

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Re: bat turn?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2006, 12:05:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
whats a bat turn?? :D

A myth unless you happen to be a bat! ;)