Author Topic: Then and Now  (Read 1252 times)

Offline lukster

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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2006, 10:42:50 AM »
Private schools have a far better record than public schools yet progressives continue to deny the poor an opportunity through vouchers to get a decent education. There can be only one reason for this and it is the fact that the secular progressives will lose their ability to indoctrinate a generation if they do not keep them in public schools. Pretty sad.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 11:43:33 AM »
The biggest difference between public and private schools are the “customers”.  Not all private and Catholic schools have good records; the ones that receive financial aid and have a majority of students from low socioeconomic “families” almost always struggle.  Most private and Catholic schools that do better do so because the parents who send their kids to those schools care about their kids education and are generally better educated and financially successful themselves.  Socioeconomic segregation determines the success of a school.  My part of Ohio is densely populated; some entire cities are wealthy, and others are poor.  Every wealthy city has public schools that rival the very successful Catholic school that I teach at in almost any measure of quality.  The poorer cities struggle with the exception of individual schools that are fed by wealthier neighborhoods.  

The second biggest difference is that Catholic and private schools usually have better discipline because they have the option of tossing out the rotten apples and are not as hindered by laws that prevent reasonable discipline.  I’ve taught in both public and private schools; I can attest that the teachers are pretty much the same.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 11:48:47 AM by eskimo2 »

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2006, 12:20:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I'm a Catholic school teacher.  I'd be fired in a second if I ever slapped a child.


Seen and experienced the wrath of Catholic school nuns, first hand. They wailed on and at kindergartners and first graders at my school. That's why they always go out in pairs.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2006, 12:37:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I’ve taught in both public and private schools; I can attest that the teachers are pretty much the same.


you may have taught in both but I went to both and I have to say the teachers are totally different in the public school system then they were in the Catholic schools I attended.

from the size of the classrooms to the salaries the teachers pulled in to the amount of "give a crap" the average teacher had about his/her students, the Catholic school system was better hands down ...

you must have taught in one those public schools that sat in the middle of a country club like the 8th grade one I went to in Severna Park MD. It was as modern as the Catholic school. Now let me tell you about the 7th grade "center" I had the joy of attending in Jax Fl back in about 72...... now there was an example of the public school system at its finest ...LOL
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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2006, 01:27:14 PM »
The public school that I taught at in Colorado Springs was a high-risk school.  Most of the students were on free or reduced lunch, had only one parent, moved or were evicted often, had a parent in jail, a lot of kids had never met their dads.  Only 4 parents out of a school of 600 were involved in the PTA, many parents never attended parent/teacher conferences or had no idea what their lids were doing or learning.  I attended funeral of a parent of one of my first graders every year.  My last year at that school I had 21 out of 23 students on Individualized Learning Plans (meaning they flunked the beginning of the year first grade test).  My kids liked school and liked me because I never yelled at them or hit them, I gave them attention, showed that I cared and never was drunk.  School was where they felt safe and loved.

For the most part we had two kinds of teachers: There were new ones who were just trying to get their foot in the door so they could work their way “up” to a more affluent and “easier” school.  Then there were the experienced teachers who could have worked elsewhere but chose to stay where they really mattered.  I made more as a public school teacher and most of the teachers that I worked with were better educated and trained.  The common traits of the teachers that I’ve worked with in both public and Catholic schools are that they all work hard, are professional and care very much about their students.  In each school there have been one or two who didn’t put forth quite as much effort as the rest.  All teachers that I’ve known put in extra hours beyond what they are paid; anywhere from 125% to 200%.  The Catholic school that I teach at has class sizes of up to 30 whenever possible.  More students mean more money.  The public school that I taught at had classes from 21 to 27.

Although I now work in a Catholic school, I feel that I was doing God’s work more-so as a high-risk public school teacher.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2006, 02:07:07 PM »
eskimo... I am  not saying you are wrong about the difference in the parents that send their kids to catholic or private schools...  I will say that I believe that if parents had a real choice... if they had vouchers that they would care more...

It has been proven that even the worst of the worst socioeconomic deprived kids do better in private school and that the parent or parents get more involved..

What is the point in the public schools where parents are allways to blame for the schools and the teachers failures?   Parents despair of having any say in public schools.

lazs

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2006, 02:43:17 PM »
With vouchers, many things will happen:  

Some students from poorer but caring families will attend Catholic and private schools.  These kids will be better off and will thrive.  

There will also be a number of families who care at least enough to make a choice and will choose to send their kids to a Catholic or private school.  Some of these kids will also thrive, but many will make little effort and some will be rather disruptive.  Just a few of these kids in a good school can really mess things up.  At my school each year we usually get a few junior high students who have transferred from public schools.  Some do well, but many cause more disruption than the rest of the class combined.  These are the only kids who end up being expelled.  Keep in mind that many students are also turned away each year because they have indicators that they will be nothing but trouble.  If vouchers happen, some voucher students will drag Catholic and private schools down.  To what degree is debatable.

The most frightening things that may come with vouchers are laws that now screw up public schools.  If vouchers come with stipulations, Catholic and private schools will be ruined.

On the good side of vouchers, many Catholic and private schools struggle financially and are closing due to a lack of funding and enrollment.  Vouchers could help these schools greatly.

Parents are not to blame for the schools' failures; they are to blame for their children’s failures.

“Parents despair of having any say in public schools.”?  -  So do public school teachers.  Laws leave their hands tied.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 02:45:57 PM by eskimo2 »

Offline lukster

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« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2006, 06:21:49 PM »
Vouchers are about equal opportunity. Sure, some kids just don't want to learn or behave appropriately. You can provide a disciplined environment for them but they may still rebel. Not much else you can do for them. However, many will greatly benefit from a more disciplined enrionment that are presently stuck in inner city jokes called schools and throwing more money at them will serve only to waste more money.

Offline Sandman

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Re: Then and Now
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2006, 06:52:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sluggish

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1973 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark.   Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.


December 2006 - Kevin decides after months of verbal sparring that he's tired of Alex's mouth and beats him to a pulp. It is easily accomplished. Kevin is at least six inches taller and fifty pounds heavier than Alex. Alex ends up in the emergency room requiring fifteen stitches to repair the damage to his face and later will schedule dental reconstruction. Kevin develops a massive infection (necrotizing faciitis) to his right hand and knuckles as a result of the contact between oral bacteria and his bloodied fists. Last word was that Kevin had about twenty staples on his hand and with any luck at all, he won't lose his fingers. With even more luck, he may learn to keep his hands to his moronic self.

In 1973 it was just a fist fight. It wasn't some ******* kid trying to hospitalize another.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 07:00:46 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Hawklore

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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2006, 07:22:45 PM »
All I know..

Is when one of my kids, when I havem, brags about how many rifles etc. that are at his house, and the history behind them, and is then escorted off school premisis via the unmanned police tron, I'll be proud to transmit my praise to him via an inter-cranular stimulation device..
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Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2006, 08:13:20 PM »
Quote
Scenario: Mary turns up pregnant.


Quote
2006 - Middle School Counselor calls Planned Parenthood, who notifies the ACLU. Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge. Mary given condoms and told to be more careful next time.



This is how it should read:

2006 - Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge.One of the teachers at mary's school is arrested for underage sex with a minor, as it turns out the same teacher has had sex with many other students.

Offline rpm

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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2006, 12:30:20 AM »
Vouchers are about getting a free ride. They see a Lexus but can only afford a Kia. Talk about socialism.

What makes you think that it will solve any of the problems? Any student would be allowed to attend any school with the voucher system. Problems will just migrate from public to private. You would actually be encouraging public problems to enter private schools.

It's not like only jocks will go to school A, only smart kids will go to school B, and all the problem kids go to school C. They will go to whatever school they want because they have a voucher. It will cause overcrowding and lower the standard of education.
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2006, 12:38:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Vouchers are about getting a free ride. They see a Lexus but can only afford a Kia. Talk about socialism.

What makes you think that it will solve any of the problems? Any student would be allowed to attend any school with the voucher system. Problems will just migrate from public to private. You would actually be encouraging public problems to enter private schools.

It's not like only jocks will go to school A, only smart kids will go to school B, and all the problem kids go to school C. They will go to whatever school they want because they have a voucher. It will cause overcrowding and lower the standard of education.


I guess you don't realize that we are already spending about 10k per year per public school student. Vouchers aren't spending something we aren't already spending. In fact, most private schools do a much better job at educating for less per student. Notice I said in "fact". If you want to debate this particiular issue I'll be glad to compare stats with you. Public schools are a miserable failure at educating everything except the secular progessive agenda.

Offline rpm

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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2006, 12:51:56 AM »
There are no "facts" that private will out perform public if every public student will be allowed to attend private. That is unless you have some type of crystal ball. Current private stats are on children from affluent parents and neighborhoods. Throw 70% of public students into the pool and those "facts" will change.
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Offline Kurt

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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2006, 01:04:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
I guess you don't realize that we are already spending about 10k per year per public school student. Vouchers aren't spending something we aren't already spending. In fact, most private schools do a much better job at educating for less per student. Notice I said in "fact". If you want to debate this particiular issue I'll be glad to compare stats with you. Public schools are a miserable failure at educating everything except the secular progessive agenda.


The day you open private schools to the vouchers is the same day that the private schools drop to the level of the public schools because they aren't able to handle the load.

You're just going to make the private students suffer on a level equivelent with the public school kids and make private school a waste for everyone... Thus degrading the entire system.

Nobody wins in that scenario... At least today if the public school blows, some people have a way out...  In the voucher world, if the public school blows, the whole country becomes stupid.

If someone can afford gasoline, do you get mad if they can drive further than you?  Should the government provide it for free?  Or should you just get off your freakin couch and work?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 01:07:22 AM by Kurt »
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