The HO Myth

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by DREDger
THERE IS NO SUCH THING, as ONE PERSON HO'ing ANOTHER.
The fact is, it takes two people to engage in the HO.

Three observations:

1)  People's interpretations of what constitutes a "HO" are different.  Some consider any "beak to beak" pass or  forward quarter shots a cheap "HO", I don't subscribe to this.  When starting defensive, taking an adversary 180 out is a very basic tenet of ACM and the first step to neutralizing any angles advantage he may have.  Taking him close aboard in the process eliminates turning room and denies him an early turn.  Firing a forward quarter shot is a perfectly valid method to throw the adversary off his gameplan and force him to maneuver in response to you.  This is a 100% legitimate tactic.

2)  HO's can, and often are generated by one party and cannot be avoided by the other.  For instance, when the target is engaged in a turning fight, often B&Zers ("Pickers") will dive in without adequately considering the maneuvers of the intended target.  This usually occurs when the picker is turning an opposite circle to the target and often ends up creating a HO situation where the target has virtually nothing to say about it, particularly when he's low e, it's just bad planning and execution by the attacker.  If I'm in a turning fight and another aircraft dives in I will be very happy to blast him in the snot locker if he comes within my zone of fire.  I was in a 1v5 a couple of months ago.  I was in a Zeke and had another Zeke on my tail for the majority of the fight.  The other four A/C kept B&Zing me and I took out all four of them with HO's and lost the Zeke when he hit the trees.  200 was a riot afterwards because I fought so unfairly.

3)  What I consider to be a cheap HO are those that simply put their nose on the target and hold the trigger down starting at D2.5 with no attempt at all to maneuver except to keep the pipper on.  I believe these are the guys that are counting on their rounds to "clear the airspace" in front of them and it involves almost no skill.  These aren't guys in the middle of a fight or defensive after being jumped, many times they're simply some hi-speed guy who starts his HO at icon range and never stops.  These types of HO's usually can be avoided but it's obvious they have no clue what to do after the pass as they usually keep on going out to 3-6K, turn and repeat.

[BlkKnit]

HO = Head On PASS...emphasis on the PASS part.  Do not remove the P. Thats my new AH2 interpretation (now I just need to convince about 8000 other guys hehe)

However, if it's just a random encounter and there's a pass, there will be rounds fired at your windshield and engine. I don't care who you are, because if you don't challenge me to a duel and you do a head-on pass, you're getting exactly what you deserve.

This is just silly.....its MY FAULT?  You pull the trigger and its MY FAULT?  Keep yer grubby little fingers off the trigger for one pass and have a little fun will ya?  Are ya skeered you might enjoy yourself?

in a one on one its just a cheap shot.

I dont think so, not after the initial pass.  Not in a furball or outnumbered.  Its not really a cheap shot at all, my problem with it is that it will probably end the fight immediately for one or both participants.  Thats not fun.  There may be times that it is deemed necessary, but I'd never say its fun.  I do it once in a while too, but cant really say I enjoy it.

Good points made by others above about deflection shots and quarting merges.

My first day in the game I upped a 190A8 and did nothing but HO's.  Know what?  No one ridiculed me for it, mostly they avoided and then shot me down.  They also helped me with lots of advice.  None ever said "Stop HOing".  This was in 2001 and these were experienced and respected players (Shane was one, another was a 38 driver of some reputation at that time.  Cant be sure who it was though.)  Point is I was a clueless noob, even more clueless than most, doing what most folks seem to hate the most about noobs and wasn't treated like a noob.

[jokeri]

You need two to tango.. same goes to HO you just cannot do it by your self. No excuses, if you don't want HO like many above said jink dive under etc. you can avoid it and plan the moves after merge.

-jokeri

[Kuhn]

Originally posted by jokeri
You need two to tango.. same goes to HO you just cannot do it by your self. No excuses, if you don't want HO like many above said jink dive under etc. you can avoid it and plan the moves after merge.

-jokeri

I agree with jokeri, but some times when youre just looking right at each other I choose to hold the trigger down.

[SteveBailey]

The fact is, it takes two people to engage in the HO

No, this is by far not a fact.  In fact, it's completely false.  It takes two to merge, one to HO.  HO refers to firing into the face of an opponent on the merge. It only takes one to decide to fire on the merge.  This is perhaps the most commmon misconception among noobs and relatively inexperienced(think.. 3 years or less) cartoon pilots.

Let's rehash:  It takes two to merge, one to HO. It's simple.


Now, that being said, HO's happen and while I am disappointed when I get hit by one(about 1 in 1000 or so is my guess) ultimately it is my responibility to avoid the HO.  

Personally, there is an upside to being on the receiving end of a HO attempt. Other than when the opponent is at a significant disadvantage(almost everyone HO's then) when said opponent tries to HO I assume, and am most often correct, that this person is unskilled/untrained in ACM at least to the point where he has no confidence in his ability  to maneuver his plane for a shot on mine.  An aggressive move by me  will either then give me a shot or force said opponent into flee mode(often).

Steve

[Zazen13]

The , "Takes two to HO" myth has been around forever. I personally disagree with this. A plane with a significant manueverability advantage either intrinsically or as a result of relative speed can force a HO on an unwilling opponent. For example, this is especially true with vertical HO's where the plane on top is victim to control compression, therefore under intense manueverability restriction and the plane on the bottom has enough E to force a nose to nose 0 degree merge. In this situation the more maueverable plane can force a HO and the other plane cannot avoid it.

Zazen

[Benny Moore]

I completely agree.  I fly the P-38, and I'm often forced into a head-on because I have insufficient energy to avoid it.  It takes a lot of energy to avoid a head-on when the other guy's a good shot, especially since the P-38's such a huge target.  When I'm fighting a pilot of roughly the same skill as myself, avoiding the head-on when he doesn't usually means losing so much energy that I he gets the upper hand immediately.  Small jinks are not enough when the other guy is a good shot.  It takes a drastic, energy-eating maneuver.  Therefore, a quarter-flip head-on pass is often the less suicidal course, unless I've got at least as much energy as the other guy.

[Fruda]

Originally posted by BlkKnit
This is just silly.....its MY FAULT?  You pull the trigger and its MY FAULT?  Keep yer grubby little fingers off the trigger for one pass and have a little fun will ya?  Are ya skeered you might enjoy yourself?

Yeah, I'm serious. If I don't get a proper challenge, I'm not taking any risks. Too many times I've had random enemies do a head-on pass at first sight and fire at my windshield. Now, a proper challenge would be meeting face to face, but breaking away a few hundred yards before a merge. That's what I do, anyway. No chance of a dreaded HO there.

It's just stupid to take such a risk, really. You wanna go head-on? Fine, but watch out for the bullets on the first pass, pal... And hope that your rudder pedals are working.

[MIShill]

The only time I don't at least try to avoid a HO is when I'm in an a 190 A8 with 30mms still aboard. I figure anyone intentionally flying head on into 30mms gets what he deserves.
-MI-

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Fruda
You wanna go head-on? Fine, but watch out for the bullets on the first pass, pal... And hope that your rudder pedals are working.

Exactly how are you supposed to initiate a merge without setting up a or a near beak to beak pass?  It is extremely easy to judge whether the guy is pulling pure lead on your nose.  I see it all the time and the thing that kills me is that the other guy is losing any kind of angles advantage to do it.  I fly the P-47 a lot, and when I first started using it regularly, I thought, "hey, point those 8 guns at anyone and common sense will mean they try to avoid the HO".  FALSE.  My favorites are P-51's with a weaker gun package and a water cooled, 1 ping wonder, engine.  I can't tell you how many times I get Ponies pulling pure lead on my nose when I'm in a Jug.  Regardless of how you feel about HO's, tell me, does that scenario make any kind of sense?  I heard one person describe it on 200 as "flip of the coin jousting" and that is all it is.  I think there is all the reason in the world to use a HO pass in a defensive situation, but that doesn't mean you have to go to guns as you pull through.  You make the pass to take away angles from the bad guy, not joust.  But, I'm not going to attempt to regulate others' behavior in this game.  If people want to blow their angles advantage by pulling pure lead on my nose, I'll figure a way to slip past, maybe with a few pings/maybe not, and then work for a low deflection shot.  Especially if its any of the heavy cannon planes.  Unless you're outnumbered and/or defensive, pulling pure lead on the bad guy is a poor choice, even if your personal history has proven it effective.  Maybe you've just been fighting the suckers...

[Booz]

Well over half the players are improving their score if they can take you down with them..even a collision is an improvement to their score if you go down too.

   It takes just one to HO, the fact that the better quarter of the players can keep you from getting nothing better than a high angle shot that you won't hit doesn't mean you're not attempting to HO. If you spray enough you get lucky 1 in 20 times. That's still a HO.

[Apar]

It's not the incidental HO as a result of 2 planes ending up frontal after an intense dogfight, I can live with those. It's also not the HO's after a rope attempt where both planes end up facing each other (one pointing up on the edge of stall with no manoeuvrability left in his plane and one coming out of a hammerhead or wingover with ditto manoeuvrability).

It is the no skill constant zoom, turn, HO, run attempts of players with no imagination whatsoever.

(for their information....a LA7 actually stall turns very very well, prolly even better then a K4)

And I don't care whether it was a legitimate tactic in WWII, in AH it will lead to allot of deaths for anybody living by the HO. Because after having avoided 2-3 silly HO-run attempts, I'm done with it and will return the favour with 30mm (1 30mm hit WILL kill you and I don't miss allot)

[rod367th]

Apar  worst thing in game is complaining about how others play. If they ho or suicide or run away its thier choice. But some get on 200 whine your so lucky or u ho'ed me or run forrest run. I will bet you every time you see guy type run run  runstang or to that effect, Get on said pilots 6 in slower plane watch what he does.  My point about it being in flight manuals, was that every one went for thier advantages. Some guys knew others wouldn't ho and got great deflection shots, This is a game always will be, When these gaMES COST 2 DOLLARS A HOUR TO PLAY, GAME PLAY WAS SAME.




 Getting on BBS or 200 or pm a PLAYER trying to shame them into playing your way is just stupid.  every good pilot knows that if guy goes for ho. he or she is easy kill. Other night i was il2  i had long term pilots in ah trying to ho my il2 with zero's and f4u's. I don't complain i just shoot back. land kills or die with 4 or 5 kills reup its a game. But I did like the so called vet whinning i ho'ed him  when he flew st8 level right at my il2 lol..........I just smiled never said word. Because its a GAME......................... ....................and others can't take thier ball home and end the Game..................

[rv6]

"To ho? or not to ho?" (again..)  Whether tis nobler to cold merge, or .. What light through yon window breaks..

[crockett]

The HO's don't bug me so much even if I get shot, it's the guys that ram you on purpose while doing it, that tick me off. I figure even as a noob I know how to avoid the HO, so I figure I can't complain too much if I get suckered.

The only time it really bugs me is when I'm out numbered and they still use the cheap shot, because sometimes it's hard to avoid a HO if you are out numbered. However in the case of being out numbered I'm taking any cheap shot I can get..