Author Topic: Hurri-C Eny Rating  (Read 2032 times)

Offline Stoney74

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Hurri-C Eny Rating
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2007, 07:56:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Brenjen
I find it odd that people will bash someone for flying the Hurri2-c...it's slow as a sloth.


I respect what you're saying completely.  I don't think its uber.  Personally, I think its a dog.  But, what I am saying is that a lot of folks that fly Hurri II's merely hover and use them as flying flak guns.  Doesn't matter what type of shot they have, they'll take it, and let the hard hitting (and accurate) cannon do their work for them.  I'm not complaining, just pointing out that take away those guns, and the result is the hangar queen that is the Hurri I (at least in the LW MA).

But seeing how those kill numbers stack up, I say a 10 ENY is certainly understandable, and probably gracious.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2007, 08:17:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
wow.  could I trouble you to see how they fare against the La7 and the 109s?  



As solicited:

Hurri II vs. LA-7

Tour 80, Hurri enjoys a 1.06 K/D
Tour 81, Hurri enjoys a 1.02 K/D
Tour 82, Hurri enjoys a 1.15 K/D
Tour 83, Hurri enjoys a 1.23 K/D

I didn't crunch all the numbers for all four tours as above for the LA-7, but:

Over the course of these same four tours:

The Hurri II:

Enjoys a higher K/D than all P-38's, P-47's, 109F's, among others

Is a wash with 109G14, 109K4 (both aircraft had higher K/D than the Hurri II for two tours, and the Hurri II had higher K/D in the other two tours)

Furthermore, comparing it against 4X20mm planes:

Hurri II has better K/D over these four tours than NiK1, Mossie

Hurri II has worse K/D than F4U-1C, Tempest, and (only slightly Typhoon)

storch

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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2007, 08:27:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
As solicited:

Hurri II vs. LA-7

Tour 80, Hurri enjoys a 1.06 K/D
Tour 81, Hurri enjoys a 1.02 K/D
Tour 82, Hurri enjoys a 1.15 K/D
Tour 83, Hurri enjoys a 1.23 K/D

I didn't crunch all the numbers for all four tours as above for the LA-7, but:

Over the course of these same four tours:

The Hurri II:

Enjoys a higher K/D than all P-38's, P-47's, 109F's, among others

Is a wash with 109G14, 109K4 (both aircraft had higher K/D than the Hurri II for two tours, and the Hurri II had higher K/D in the other two tours)

Furthermore, comparing it against 4X20mm planes:

Hurri II has better K/D over these four tours than NiK1, Mossie

Hurri II has worse K/D than F4U-1C, Tempest, and (only slightly Typhoon)
thank you.  amazing stuff, that.

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2007, 08:36:51 PM »
Let's compare the various ENY:

EW: IIC=10 which is equal to the Spit V
It's higher than the Spit IX, P38G, and 190A5
It's 1/2 the ENY of a Zeke

MW: IIC=15 which is equal to the F6F, P38J and Seafire
It's higher than the Spit VIII, Typhoon, Bf110G2, LA5 and P51B
It's lower than the Spit V and IX, Yak9 and Zeke

LW: IIC=10 which is equal to the Bf110G2, Sp VIII and Typhoon
It's greater than the F4U-1C, F4U-4, LA7, Niki, P47N, Spit XIV/XVI, Tempest, and P51D
It's lower than the Ki84, Zeke, all 109's and Spit IX

I'd say that overall the ENY's aren't unreasonable but there could be some fine tuning.  A Bf-110G2 doesn't stand a chance except in a HO and I don't understand it going from a lower ENY in MW to an equal ENY in LW, it should be higher in all the arenas.  The Zeke is the only one that can realistically out turn the IIC and it's faster so I'd say the Zeke, purely from a threat perspective, should have a lower ENY.  It probably doesn't since it's pretty fragile.  All the Spits I listed have 20mm plus speed and maneuverability, don't really see a big difference when it comes to fighting the Hurri with any of them except a Spit I.  Don't know why the Typhoon goes from lower ENY in MW to equal in LW.  Every other plane listed has both a speed and climb advantage if I remember all the numbers.  This, in the majority of cases allows them to chose a fight, unlike the Hurri which usually has to take what he gets.

Overall, I'd say the IIC has three things going for it, the guns, the turn and it's toughness.  I can't vouch for the Hurri's RL toughness, but's it's definently a tough old bird in AH.  On the down side it has lousy e retention, B&Z in it is more of a B&zzzzz, and the great cannons are offset somewhat by the limited ammo.  As has been mentioned it can't run away from anything except maybe an M8.  

I agree that there are many more IIC's flying than in the old MA.  I remember when a IIC was a very rare plane to come across which is one of the reasons I sort of latched onto it.  It was ugly, slow and no one loved it but with some experience it's like sex with a 40 year-old divorcee, she'll do things that'll water your eyes and can be a cast iron b***h if you cross her.

With the new areans, predominently the EW, there do appear to be quite a number of guys who don't know how to get the lovin' out of her and seem to up it just for the HOs.  Given the performance and cannons of the airplanes in EW with a lower ENY I don't see the beef other than it'll take some time for people to really learn the plane for anything except a HO but then that's not much different than the 110, 190 and Mossie.  It seems to me that I see far more HO attempts by 190's than by IICs but that's just my impression, I've never counted so could be wrong.  I can't tell you how often I've been jumped as a single by four or five 190's, 109s, P51s, etc., only to be accused of HOing as I twist and turn on the deck avoiding their B&Z.  Under those conditions (quite common in such a slow plane) I'll shoot anyone that gets near my nose, if it ends up being a HO then so be it.  Most of my kills actually come from deflections, snapshots, or dead six.  Those guys that don't understand what an overshoot is are usually the ones on the receiving end.  

Regarding the K/D ratios, it's my experience that the Spits and Pony's (and other "better" planes) die because they don't use good tactics and tend to be overconfident in their abilities.  Many of the high/fast flyers get impatient or don't have a real plan against the Hurri, they think they'll just dive in on the slow/low plane, make one pass and then run off and land their kill.  That's kinda foolish.  Smart tactics, especially when a guy works an altitude/e advantage, are very tough for a Hurri to beat since, as I said before, almost every plane has a speed and climb advantage over it.  IMO, the ENY should be based, as well as it can be, on the technical superiority of the aircraft, not on foolish tactics and the ENY appears fairly reasonable.
Mace
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Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2007, 08:48:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
I respect what you're saying completely.  I don't think its uber.  Personally, I think its a dog.  But, what I am saying is that a lot of folks that fly Hurri II's merely hover and use them as flying flak guns.  Doesn't matter what type of shot they have, they'll take it, and let the hard hitting (and accurate) cannon do their work for them.  I'm not complaining, just pointing out that take away those guns, and the result is the hangar queen that is the Hurri I (at least in the LW MA).

But seeing how those kill numbers stack up, I say a 10 ENY is certainly understandable, and probably gracious.


Take away turn from a Zeke, guns from an 110, loops from a P38, and speed from LAs, Ponys, 190's etc., etc., and most would be hangar queens.  A plane is what it is.  The Hurri doesn't so much "hover" as it twists and turns with lots of rudder and flaps pumping up and down all the while wondering how soon he'll run out of ammo and altitude.  Trust me, a Hurri pilot is one hard working dude.:aok
Mace
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2007, 10:42:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004

Overall, I'd say the IIC has three things going for it, the guns, the turn and it's toughness.


I'd say given these kill numbers, and the overall poor performance of the Hurri II in general (all those characteristics you mentioned), the Hurri II has FOUR things going for it (in the hands of the typical MA pilot):  Cannon #1, Cannon #2, Cannon #3, and Cannon #4.

Quote
Under those conditions (quite common in such a slow plane) I'll shoot anyone that gets near my nose, if it ends up being a HO then so be it.


I agree that it is the proper tactic in this case, without a doubt.  The only difference is that the quick turn makes this tactic much more likely/successful/available.  I have to have a good bit of E to make a quick turn into an enemy to bring my 8X.50cals to bear.  Hurri doesn't suffer from this.

Quote
Regarding the K/D ratios, it's my experience that the Spits and Pony's (and other "better" planes) die because they don't use good tactics and tend to be overconfident in their abilities.  


I agree 100% with this.  However, in the hands of the typical MA pilot, the Hurri II uses poor tactics as well, its just that the capabilities of the Hurri II in conjunction with that massive firepower provide a crutch for those said pilots.

I've got a lot of respect for someone that can fly a Hurri II competitively in the MA, if they fly the plane clean/well.  You could make the argument that even a good pilot in the Hurri, facing an equally good pilot in a higher performance plane, doesn't have a chance without those cannon.  I BnZ the Jug like its cool, and I overshoot purposefully all the time.  I just love when I overshoot a Hurri II and for those brief seconds I'm in front of the Hurri (usually carrying over 400-500mph IAS) they lay on the trigger trying to get a lucky shot, that will reward them as a result of the damage potential of the cannon.  Not saying its not a valid application of the weapon system, but hoping for a lucky shot made at >600 yards is exploitation of the cannon.  

I also agree that all planes have advantages that should be exploited, and the firepower and turn radius of the Hurri are the right characteristics to exploit.  I'm just saying that the cannon are more advantageous in typical MA combat, as the stats suggest.  Obviously considering the differences in performance, the width and breadth of the flight envelope is not as big a factor as the firepower, IMHO.  I suppose that you could argue that there are underlying issues in the numbers, but given the almost total domination of the Hurri over most of the non-perked high-performance aircraft, there must be some value to the analysis of the numbers.  At least, that's my opinion, and that's all that it is.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 10:47:15 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2007, 12:30:31 AM »
I'd never flown a Hurri until last night.  I usually fly a Spit XVI as my primary ride.  

I flew one mission in an approximately even odds furball last night and landed 4 kills.  

Tried it again tonight, first in a furball favoring our country but with all the friendlies around I could never get to an enemy plane in time to take a shot and finally augered on the deck with no kills and no shots taken.  Then I took it out in defense of a VB.  I ended up in a one on four and killed 2 but took a pilot wound.  Even with that I got one more.  More enemys came in and none of them would fight me.  They just let me fly off.  I ended up ditching due to the pilot wound at a friendly VB (blacked out and clipped a hanger).

First of all, I found that other pilots mostly didn't want to fight me.  I had to "sneak" into the fight to get close enough to go for a kill.

Second, I took no HO shots.  All of my kills came from pure or lead pursuit.

Third, the few who did try to fight me zoomed in from behind or tried to aquire my six while I was busy with someone else.  Regardless of the tactic all I had to do was turn and their attempt was over (except for a 109 or 190 who overshot then died).

Finally, at least two of my kills were against very good turn fighters including at least 1 NIK who I just completely out-turned.

From this short experience I'd say that, while slow, the Hurri IIC can more than hold it's own in the LW main arenas and I was surprised it was a 10 eny and not 5.  With some speed I'm sure it would be.  It's also very forgiving.
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Offline LTARghst

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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2007, 10:38:18 AM »
People can run their mouth (not pointing in names out) but I love the Hurri. Dont see nothing wrong with the plane but speed and ammo load. I am not one to HO in it unless you come spraying 1.5 out. I fly it alot and people try to HO me in 190's mostly, p51's alot and LA's. You say it is a skilless ride I beg to differ. I am not a great pilot but the Hurri does save you from those who dive from way above to try and pick you, funny to let them think they are gonna get a pick kill and then turn at the last minute stall and pop em in the ***. IMHO!

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2007, 11:02:36 AM »
All a hurri has is turning and guns no more .

If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride your toast.

I'm talking about the pilot who wont get into the turn game.
He's going to get his ac around just fast enough so you have no time to regain E.
Then slowly beat you down  to the deck where you can't dive for more E.
Once he has it so you cant use the vertical he will continue till you are mushing through the turn.

At that point best your going to get is a possible snap shot or HO.


I am no uber pilot, but I have been on both ends of the above . So I know what works.

You may now flame away.


Bronk
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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2007, 11:04:11 AM »
I've never met a Hurricane of any model that did not spray me at the merge, except for the one flown by Shatzi.  Salute, Shatzi!

Offline SteveBailey

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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2007, 11:48:55 AM »
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If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride you're toast.



I was beginning to think this was some kind of secret only I knew.  Fight Hurris in the vert and they are nearly helpless.

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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2007, 12:09:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
All a hurri has is turning and guns no more .

If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride your toast.

I'm talking about the pilot who wont get into the turn game.
He's going to get his ac around just fast enough so you have no time to regain E.
Then slowly beat you down  to the deck where you can't dive for more E.
Once he has it so you cant use the vertical he will continue till you are mushing through the turn.

At that point best your going to get is a possible snap shot or HO.


I am no uber pilot, but I have been on both ends of the above . So I know what works.

You may now flame away.


Bronk
that's exactly right.  the thing is like all pidgeons most woobie drivers flock.  you see them flocking along perfectly happy to be HO'n and dweebing and generally slobbering up the place.  a pox on the transgender lot of them.

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2007, 12:19:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
that's exactly right.  the thing is like all pidgeons most woobie drivers flock.  you see them flocking along perfectly happy to be HO'n and dweebing and generally slobbering up the place.  a pox on the transgender lot of them.


:rofl

I look at em more like piranhas.
Alone no big threat but in schools... look out they'll chew you up quick if they can catch you.


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Offline Warchief

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« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2007, 01:10:40 PM »
As someone who flies the Hurri IIC majority of the time and is my preferred a/c let me say first the ENY in the MW and LW is something that needs to be adjusted.

I am suprised that no one has stated that all Hurri IIC are used for is HOing. Before someone says well you HO. Damn right I do. I dont know who is in the other plane and no way in hell am I just going to sit there and let someone HO because it is some rookie GAMER pilot. Then again peoples definition of a HO has to be taken into account as well.

THe Hurri is a solid a/c and easy to fly but hard to master. Anyone can hop in and take off and maybe get a few kills. But to master where you can land kills in a furball and get out of there is difficult to master. Just like with any a/c if it is flown by a seasoned vet who knows his weakness and strengths of his a/c he/she is someone not be take lightly. Yeah the speed is not so great but it has a deadly deflection shot. ASk the 5-6 262 who have fallen to the guns of my Hurri. Enough of that though

The reason the Hurri IIC were given the high ENY is due to there guns alone. People were crying about the plane sets with the 4-20 mike packages. SO HiTech gave them low ENY. It needs to adjusted and if ENY is a reflection of an a.c performace vrs other aircraft within that Arena then in MW and LW they should have an ENY around 15-25 and in EW leave it as it is.

Offline detch01

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« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2007, 01:48:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
true mersu I find it's impervious to almost all damage.  I'm not opposed to it remaining that way as it gives the noobs something to survive in.  I get a chuckle out of the "veteran" players who won't wean themselves from RR play though.

if AH modelling were truly reflective of aircraft performance then the british would have continued developement of the hurricane and cancelled the spitfire program.  the same could be said of the 110, another model with blatant less than accurate representation in the game.  the 110 however does have a weak tail and is prone to stalling.  the hurri takes tons of hits before any damage registers.


The hurri seems to perform where it should near enough, it's the way players who try to kill it that's causing the hurri to seem so good in everywhere including the EWA (which, in my mind the Hurri II doesn't belong in, perked or not). Don't take the hurri nose-nose and don't turn fight it - problem solved.
As for the 110. Maybe. CLmax might be a little high in the C, and I say that only because co-E in an early war setup or BoB setup the C seems to stay with a spit in a turn a little too well. Unless I face them in numbers and they have E or alt on me I don't see them as much of a problem.
It's easy to get lost in the difference between the flight modelling in the game in the way people use the aircraft.


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