Author Topic: do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?  (Read 1751 times)

Offline B@tfinkV

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
if that statement is correct, which i will always strongly dispute, then it is only more proof of how far human laws and morals have fallen from the proverbial tree.
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Offline Bodhi

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2007, 11:16:59 PM »
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 05:22:59 AM by MP5 »
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Offline B@tfinkV

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2007, 11:28:22 PM »
go look for someone who takes you seriously, and doesnt consider you a total waste of carbon.
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Offline Bodhi

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2007, 11:38:37 PM »
[4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 05:27:15 AM by MP5 »
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Leslie

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2007, 12:07:41 AM »
I have heard that cats kill for fun.  I had a cat that wiped out the squirrel population in my back yard.  It would leave the tail of its kill on my doorstep every time.  Guess it ate the rest, but I never found evidence of partially eaten squirrel carcasses.

My opinion is that attributing human qualities to wild animals is to misunderstand nature.  Wild animals have instinct and survive in nature.  Their biological systems are set up so they can eat rotten meat and not get sick, for example.  A big mistake would be to watch what an animal eats, and then assume it's safe for you to eat.  They're different organisms from humans.

That said, humans have a conscience which guides us.   In this case, the motive for killing something should be taken into consideration...hunting for example can be a great teacher of morals and right from wrong.   If you're going to kill, do it humanely with a well placed shot.  Eat what you kill, or mount it but don't kill just to be killing.  Don't shoot songbirds.  These are moral lessons from interacting with nature.  It's called hunting...not killing.  

It seems Bat, you are asking why there is no moral equivalence concerning the killing of a bug or of a human?  Or why there are varying degrees of laws applied to theft?  I'm sure there are some philosophical ways of thinking about this that would rack a brain.   I believe religion is instrumental in a person's moral life and their code of conduct.  Sometimes the state directs societal mores, such as in China and its form of communism.  If you ask a communist Chinese couple who are engaged to be married, "Have you two been to bed (before marriage?)", they will give a blank look like they don't know what you're talking about.  It simply is not done, or wasn't 20 years ago.  

Animals are known to have sex just for fun.  I think every time they procreate, it's for fun and no other reason.  Though there are some animals that have a single mate for life (geese,) I don't believe they have any concept of marriage.   It's humans that have sex with the insight that offspring will result.

Again, I believe it's a mistake to assign human attributes to animals.  Nature is pretty far removed from our world and the business of people.  Of course it's interesting to think about for sure.  Nothing wrong with that.  I wouldn't want to see laws passed based on such misunderstanding though.




Les

Offline SteveBailey

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2007, 01:02:40 AM »
Quote
they will kill me if i show fear.



:lol


dude, where do you get this stuff?

Offline Vudak

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2007, 01:04:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
:lol


dude, where do you get this stuff?


I'm guessing either from Timothy Treadwell, or a relationship :D
Vudak
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Offline WMLute

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2007, 01:18:06 AM »
where do viruses fit in to it all then.
they are alive as well.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline B@tfinkV

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2007, 03:29:22 AM »
i think many of you misunderstand what im saying. i do not belive the mroals of nature are individual to each wild animal. what im saying is that mother nature herself has a moral code that she imparts upon her creatures in the form of instinct.

how many humans do you think have come face to face with a wild lion and not either intended to kill the lion, or been very very scared?


wild creatures especially predators will sense this right away.



you are clueless if you do not think that showing fear to a wild cat is the worst thing you can do.



as les just said, he thinks his cat kills for fun (even though clearly the cat was eating his prey) the cat senses fear in the mouse and chases it through natural instinct.


i had a cat once called biggles, a grey tabby, big strong cat always beating snot out of the alley cats in the area, massive build was this cat, had shoulders and paws so big he could easily rival alot of medium sized dogs with a quick slash accross the nose that would send even the hardest dogs running and wailing. i watermelon you not this cat was so tough and mean, when my sister was born my parents would not let the cat anywhere near her, he was that capable of causing injury.
 That same master of the street was once sitting lazily on my kitchen floor and i was throwing down small chunks of cheddar cheese to him as i made some tosted sarnies. would you belive it, a little doormouse came confidently out from under the fridge, and marched up to biggles and just sat there. looking over the counter at this incredible moment the cat and mouse were starring at each other, the cat wafting his tail to and fro and purring, the mouse twitching his nose and showing absolutely no realisation of what cats do to mice. he scampered a little closer as i sat in silent awe, and he picked up a scrap of the cats cheese and just stood there on its backlegs holding this scrap in its front paws. biggles didnt even stop purring. This was like david and goliath and they decided to go for a pint together in the pub before the battle.
 Suddenly i couldnt hold in anymore and i made a sound that drew both cat and mouse to stare up at me as if they forgot i was there. quick as that the mouse was off and back under the fridge and the instant he did the cat sprang forwards and crashed into the fridge door in vain attempt to capture the now fleeing thief.
  i gave biggles a right ear bashing about letting the mouse go, and he just purred and rubbed up my ankles.  i have known him to catch everything from mice to pidgeons, and even rabbits before, leaving the entrails on the kitchen floor. but this master predator had no inclination to chase the mouse that showed no fear, or most likely was too young to realise the danger.


explain that.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 03:44:07 AM by B@tfinkV »
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Offline Leslie

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2007, 03:59:05 AM »
Mama Cat, so called because she nursed another cat's litter (rare for cats) was the sweetest, most well behaved cat I'd ever seen.  That cat would come to me when I called it.  It wasn't really even my cat but my room mate's cat, which was entrusted to my care.  I think she sensed squirrels would please me after seeing me shoot a BB gun at squirrels a couple times.  She was obviously showing off the trophy for my benefit.  I don't think fear on the part of squirrels had anything to do with it.  She was displaying her hunting prowess for my benefit.

Now I was feeding her regularly, so she didn't need the food.  Biggles was probably awaiting your instruction when dealing with the mouse.:D

Cats love cheese.  There would be no cheese sitting on the floor for long.  Biggles attention was on cheese at the moment.  The cheese was more important than the mouse at the time.  A cat that isn't hungry always will toy with a mouse first.  I suspect Biggles was waiting for more cheese and wasn't interested in playing around.  





Les
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 04:22:00 AM by Leslie »

Offline WMLute

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2007, 05:14:32 AM »
serioiusly Bat (and I find my philosophical quotes going ingnored quite "interesting") what about a virus.

it's alive.

by your line of reasoning, there shouldn't be a diff. from killing viruses, and killing people, as they are both living entities.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline B@tfinkV

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2007, 06:04:11 AM »
lute your quote were fascinating and i read them all twice. fact is they are solid philosophical quotes that are more statements than qurstions that need discusing. thank you for them i have copypasted them into notepad files and i am very impressed with your knoledge and additions to the topic. thank you!


to answer your question as best i can:

a virus is a lifeform with as much 'right' to exist as a human, yes.


the blatant fact you are possibly overlooking is that if a virus is attacking a human body, then natures morality denotes it as 'right' to defend the body from said virus. its not like people often go round hunting new viruses in swaps just to kill them off for no reason.

so yes, there is no essential difference between killing a virus and killing a human. the major fact in both spieces is that when a lifeform comes under attack by another lifeform, nature considers it only fair that we fight to preserve our own lives.

if a virus is trying to kill you then there is every right to destroy the attacker before it destroys you.

if a human is trying to kill you then, in most countries and communities, there is every right to destroy that human before it destroys you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leslie, good points and possibilities about what my cat was thinking. definitely possibilities and i'm thinking on the matter as i type.


sounds to me like Mama Cat was a good hunter! but do you not suppose that whilst stalking her prey mama cat would have been aware of the body language of the target?


it is obvious for me to geuss (read: estimate, not know for sure) that before the very vast majority of kills a cat makes in the 'wild' the prey would be suddenly aware of its peril and that is the moment the predator would choose to strike, when it can physically 'smell' the fear. Some get away in time, the slower ones dont.


bat
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Offline Gunthr

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2007, 09:43:35 AM »
Bat,  you seem to be trying to personify the matierial universe, and you even assign it the female gender and morals of (her) own.  why don't you just go ahead and give her a name, like Mary Lou or LaShawna?
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline lukster

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2007, 09:47:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Bat,  you seem to be trying to personify the matierial universe, and you even assign it the female gender and morals of (her) own.  why don't you just go ahead and give her a name, like Mary Lou or LaShawna?


that's just Gaia  ;)

Offline B@tfinkV

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do the laws of humans, and the morals of nature have any place together?
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2007, 09:49:16 AM »
mother earth is the generally accepted nick name for nature, im simply putting it in words that require less typing.


i could say 'the natural force that governs the very essance of all life in the universe not just our planet' every time but that would make me a banana.
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