Author Topic: Jeremy Clarkson-The Good The Bad The Ugly  (Read 10245 times)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #195 on: January 10, 2007, 09:40:24 PM »
However I think the BMW's lower weight would not matter much in a drag race. The Chavelle got a lot more power. While the BMW's lower weight and 50/50 weight distribution would make it much better in the corners. This perhaps makes these two cars the perfect stereotypes of American and European affordable sports cars. These days however the classical stereotypes are getting washed out as cars from all over the world are getting more and more similar.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #196 on: January 10, 2007, 09:42:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The BMW 6 can corner a lot better than the Chevelle. The Chevelle otoh is a lot faster in a drag race.

Oh, and the BMW does not weigh more than the Chevelle. It weighs 300 lbs less.
66 Chevelle with a V8 (4-door, the heaviest): 3251 lbs. 83 633csi (only one I could find here): 3345.

Now... I supposed you could shave some weight off that, but you aren't even trying to say the 633 only weighs 2900 lbs are you? Cause, I think we've already got that "liar" thing out of the way.

The overall length of the car is a scant 2" less than the Chevelle with a 12" SHORTER wheel base and a 12" NARROWER wheel base. Now, I suppose in some grand european justification, that would translate to better groundwork for handling, but not anywhere else. The Chevelle would need a little work to stiffen it up, but you could buy a complete suspension set for it that would meet virtually any performance conditions your looking for for less than it would cost to change the clutch in that BMW. The only thing you're sacrificing is no IRS.

Now, go ahead and stick to your guns and insist the 633 handles "better" based on... um... you saying so. You seriously know nothing about the subject and really just should shut up. Hell... I don't know much on it myself and I can see you're full of ****.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #197 on: January 10, 2007, 10:01:14 PM »
This site says the 1982 BMW 633 weighs in at 3220 lbs.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z8211/BMW_633/default.aspx



This site says the 1968 Chevelle weights in at 3520 lbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevelle



This site says the 1973 Chevelle weighs in at 3479 lbs.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z12097/default.aspx



I'm not saying the BMW is a better car than the Chevelle, just different. You're the one displaying blatant nationalism and rater rude behavior.

But if you insist on this dick measuring contest, I'll bet the BMW has better brakes, better suspension, better (or rather perfect) weight distribution, lower centre of gravity and more accurate steering.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 10:05:40 PM by Viking »

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #198 on: January 10, 2007, 10:06:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
This site says the 1982 BMW 633 weighs in at 3220 lbs.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z8211/BMW_633/default.aspx
OK.
Quote
This site says the 1968 Chevelle weights in at 3520 lbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevelle
Yeah? You know that the car you have pictured is a 66 chevelle.... right? Try looking up the weight for that since the discussion WAS ON THE CARS YOU HAVE PICTURED... not something else that better fits your argument.
Quote
I'm not saying the BMW is a better car than the Chavelle, just different. You're the one displaying blatant nationalism and rater rude behavior.
Oh really? I'm not the one trying to smooth numbers to try to make a point after bungling up several times already in this thread.

Don't give me this nationalism crap. I know more about that BMW than you do about that Chevelle. This much is readily apparent. I have not commented it on anything other than numbers. Nationality has nothing to do with it. You're the one posting a picture that you think personifies something no matter how incorrect your assumptions about both the roads and the car might be. Do you even read the bile you spew?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 10:09:01 PM by Mini D »

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #199 on: January 10, 2007, 10:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
This site says the 1982 BMW 633 weighs in at 3220 lbs.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z8211/BMW_633/default.aspx



This site says the 1968 Chevelle weights in at 3520 lbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevelle



This site says the 1973 Chevelle weighs in at 3479 lbs.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z12097/default.aspx



I'm not saying the BMW is a better car than the Chevelle, just different. You're the one displaying blatant nationalism and rater rude behavior.

But if you insist on this dick measuring contest, I'll bet the BMW has better brakes, better suspension, better (or rather perfect) weight distribution, lower centre of gravity and more accurate steering.



The early 60s A-bodies (Chevelles, gtos, 442s, skylarks) were light in mid 60s and gained weight every year.  

68 and 73 are NOT a way to prove your point and really shows your ingorance on the basics of 60s muscle.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #200 on: January 10, 2007, 10:38:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
OK.Yeah? You know that the car you have pictured is a 66 chevelle.... right?


Ok, can we then agree that the two cars are fairly equal in weight then?


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Try looking up the weight for that since the discussion WAS ON THE CARS YOU HAVE PICTURED... not something else that better fits your argument.


Actually the discussion wasn't about these two cars at all. They are just two pictures of cars I found on Google Images that I think personifies classic American and European sports coupes. I didn't even mention the weight or performance of either car until you started this pissing contest. You started this, not I.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Don't give me this nationalism crap. I know more about that BMW than you do about that Chevelle. This much is readily apparent. I have not commented it on anything other than numbers. Nationality has nothing to do with it. You're the one posting a picture that you think personifies something no matter how incorrect your assumptions about both the roads and the car might be.


So you really think a stock Chevelle (whatever model) handles better then a BMW 6 series in corners? Who do you think would be the fastest around the Nürburgring?

If you are so informed on these two vehicles as you claim you wouldn't mind informing the rest of us about the differences in brakes, weight distribution, centre of gravity, rear differential and seering?

I await your answer with the utmost respect and humility for your superior knowledge on the subject.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Do you even read the bile you spew?


I'm afraid I'm not the one "spewing bile". You however are lending credibility to another stereotype … that of the rude American.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 10:43:30 PM by Viking »

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #201 on: January 10, 2007, 11:18:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
That 633 you show is nearly as big as that chevelle and weighs more. You tell me how that correlates to the road pictures you show? There's a reason they had an elise and an atom on that show and not an 80s 633.


Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Actually the discussion wasn't about these two cars at all. They are just two pictures of cars I found on Google Images that I think personifies classic American and European sports coupes. I didn't even mention the weight or performance of either car until you started this pissing contest. You started this, not I.


Now... you're getting preachy and making huge incorrect leaps. You argue a statement that I make with incorrect information and lies (none of those chevelles are 300 lbs more now are they... and I'll bet that 633 wasn't made in NC) and then you pretend that's not what it was all about as if you were right and you're doing me a favor by letting it go. You were wrong with the pictures and the information you posted to "refute my statement" afterwards. Just admit it and stop trying to call it a draw ("then we can agree they were about the same weight?").

The 2 door chevelle you have pictured is lighter than that 633. That 633 is pretty much the same size as the car. It is 20 years newer with an independent rearend. It is underpowered (all 80's cars are with few exceptions) and might take a corner well, but if that's it's only strength then a $3000 investment in that chevelle will have it kicking that 633's bellybutton at any track.

People get cocky at the current state of vehicles and technology as if they are engineering marvels. Doing more with less is an engineering marvel. A car with no computers beating the **** out of a car with 47 is an engineering marvel. The average consumer being able to work on his own car is an engineering marvel. We've created a new set of standards to try and justify newer cars. None of them are relevant as cars haven't really offered anything new other than a false sense of security for the last 40 years.

So Porsche finally figured how to engineer out the horrible oversteer in the 911. Woopdeedoo. The car is still inherantly unstable and requires computer assistance to drive. I cringed when he talked about the "ABS kicking in waaaaaay too early" on a track. If this story is about being able to build a vehicle.... nobody is doing a good job at it right now. That era you're mocking was one of the best ever and it's not a good thing that we're moving so far away from it.

And just so you know... things on the American Muscle Car scene started going downhill in 1968. Try to avoid using cars from that late and on to define it. It, once again, only shows your ignorance.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #202 on: January 10, 2007, 11:57:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Now... you're getting preachy and making huge incorrect leaps. You argue a statement that I make with incorrect information and lies (none of those chevelles are 300 lbs more now are they...


Well, yes they were according to the sites I posted. 3520 lbs 1968 Chevelle vs. 3220 lbs 1982 BMW, that's a difference of 300 lbs. Admittedly it wasn't the model Chevelle I posted a picture of for which I didn't know what model it was until you told me; nor did I care.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
… and then you pretend that's not what it was all about as if you were right and you're doing me a favor by letting it go.


The weight of the two cars are close enough that it is irrelevant, but if you insist on this line of argument; go right ahead. What difference does it make?


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
The 2 door chevelle you have pictured is lighter than that 633.


Ok I can accept that if it makes you happy. The difference be it 300 pounds heavier or somewhat lighter (you have not quantified that claim), makes little or no difference.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
That 633 is pretty much the same size as the car. It is 20 years newer with an independent rearend. It is underpowered (all 80's cars are with few exceptions) and might take a corner well, but if that's it's only strength then a $3000 investment in that chevelle will have it kicking that 633's bellybutton at any track.


There you have it. You actually admit you'd have to modify the Chevelle with $3000 worth of parts to make it better than the stock BMW. Thank you.

For $3000 you could also put a turbo or blower in the BMW, lower it and give it better wheels for racing. Whatever you do to the Chevelle it will be difficult to fix that heavy front weight imbalance, and anything you bolt onto the motor will only exasperate the problem.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
People get cocky at the current state of vehicles and technology as if they are engineering marvels. Doing more with less is an engineering marvel. A car with no computers beating the **** out of a car with 47 is an engineering marvel. The average consumer being able to work on his own car is an engineering marvel. We've created a new set of standards to try and justify newer cars. None of them are relevant as cars haven't really offered anything new other than a false sense of security for the last 40 years.


I don't think seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, reinforced doors and pillars, collapsible steering columns, anti-lock brakes, and many more safety improvements that I fail recollect offers a false sense of security. These features do save lives. The compromise in performance by adding weight and regulatory limits on chassis design is a fair price to pay IMHO.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
So Porsche finally figured how to engineer out the horrible oversteer in the 911. Woopdeedoo. The car is still inherantly unstable and requires computer assistance to drive.


Now you're bringing Porsche into this?


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
I cringed when he talked about the "ABS kicking in waaaaaay too early" on a track. If this story is about being able to build a vehicle.... nobody is doing a good job at it right now. That era you're mocking was one of the best ever and it's not a good thing that we're moving so far away from it.


I'm not mocking anything. I think the Chevelle is an awesome car. That's why I chose it.


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
And just so you know... things on the American Muscle Car scene started going downhill in 1968. Try to avoid using cars from that late and on to define it. It, once again, only shows your ignorance.


Since I chose a 1966 Chavelle it seems that by sheer accident I didn't show my ignorance.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #203 on: January 11, 2007, 12:05:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Well, yes they were according to the sites I posted. 3520 lbs 1968 Chevelle vs. 3220 lbs 1982 BMW, that's a difference of 300 lbs. Admittedly it wasn't the model Chevelle I posted a picture of for which I didn't know what model it was until you told me; nor did I care.
Of course you care. That's why you went to the trouble to find the lightest 633 you could and to find the heaviest chevelle you could. I simply looked at the pictures and got the right data because I actually knew what I was looking at.

You're trying to make some statement about the state of the U.S. auto industry by posting pictures of some of the best cars (US) ever made as if they're let downs to foreign (european) cars made 20 years later. That's what is called nationalism. That's what you accused me of because you simply don't realize you're doing it. You don't realize anything the way you've been arguing, losing, changing tactics, pretending you weren't incredibly mistaken, then trying yet another aproach all the way through this thread.

I'm done with you, viking. You've lost and you don't even realize it.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #204 on: January 11, 2007, 12:08:50 AM »
PS: Throwing $3k into that car for bolt-on parts doesn't put it anywhere near the pricerange of that 633.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #205 on: January 11, 2007, 12:23:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
You're trying to make some statement about the state of the U.S. auto industry by posting pictures of some of the best cars (US) ever made as if they're let downs to foreign (european) cars made 20 years later. That's what is called nationalism.


I've done nothing of the sort, I think you're reading too much into what I'm posting. How can I be nationalistic about a BMW? I'm not German.

You have been nothing but rude and confrontational, while I have tried to be courteous and fair at every opportunity. I think your hostility towards me has nothing to do with my posts in this thread, but more to do with some deep seeded dislike towards me in general. In any case I'm not bothered. Carry on as you please.

Offline moot

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« Reply #206 on: January 11, 2007, 12:35:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Of course not ... it's a stereotype. But the thing about stereotypes is that they wouldn't exist if they weren't for the most part true. The road networks and cities of our two respective continents have been the major influence of our rather different approach to car design. While Europe's cities and roads sometimes dates back to the Roman Empire with narrow streets and tight bends designed for nothing less maneuverable than a horse; American cities and roads are mostly built after the introduction of the motor vehicle.

So in essence you can say that while in America the roads are built for cars, in Europe the cars are built for the roads.

Stereotypes may be true, but like I said, they don't tell the whole story.  
Louis XIV, and everyday romantique Parisian dweebs are both "true" stereotypes of the French, despite being quite different:  one's a stinking (under the tons of perfume etc) patriarch who died of gangrene (more or less), the other is a simple guy who lives on bread, water, and romance.
Neither one, nor both together, tell much more than a relatively small facet of the complete story.
It's the same with automotive experience in the US, or in Europe, or anywhere else..

Transportation and automotion only have in common their physical medium.  You really can't tie together the two, much more than you can tie together the means and ends of Louis the 14th and said dweeb.
I think this (comparing apples and oranges as is comparing US and EU or even JP cars) is pretty similar to guns or plants and animals - adapting to their environment.

Look at Clarkson's review of the old and new supercars: he prefered the F40 because it was, in his opinion, what a supercar was supposed to be, specificaly, "ass-seat-road", no gimmicks.
That's a few layers of interpretation, taste and arbitrary judgement: "prefered", "in his opinion", "supposed to be", etc.
Design with a capital D will always tend towards specialization, towards perfection.  The efficiency and accuracy of this is rational, and therefore measurable.
Taste is not bound by reason.

What is gimmicky in european cars, to some people, might be an essential and yet intangible part of a good car.
Look at Lazs' interpretation of "comfort": a TownCar.  Others might say it is not comfortable, so much as a big barge that wallows over the ground instead of (like say a luxury AMG) adaptively gluing to almost any road like a gecko, firmly and precisely absorbing everything under it.

Clarkson only keeps the audience's attention because he manages to present some facts said audience may not have thought of, whether by the means of comic or emotional or any other appeals.
Imagine if he reviewed WWII warbirds instead of cars, the same way he does on TopGear.. it would still make for some comic relief, but not much more.  It's just stand up comedy with some facts as supporting skeleton.
It's just TV, just entertainment, showcasing.  TV doesn't tell you what you like, you do.

Function and fashion are, in my opinion, two different manifestations of the same thing.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 12:39:53 AM by moot »
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #207 on: January 11, 2007, 12:40:02 AM »
Moot, I can agree with that wholeheartedly.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #208 on: January 11, 2007, 12:40:33 AM »
Right now you're siding with "Europe"... pretty much because GB doesn't have anything at all that can compete with the Chevelle until you hit the 90's.

You have not been respectfull in regards to anything gscholz... quit pretending otherwise. "To each his own" is a rollyeyes thing. The "that's because it was built in the U.S. to lower standards" line is pure bile and ignorance. You make incredibly insulting statements towards the U.S. in general and get pissy when someone throws them back at you specifically. Being vague has it's advantages (I guess).

You liked the show because it bashed the U.S. auto industry which you feel is inferior to BMW in every way because you were lucky enough to own a 91 that survived. I'm not stereotyping Europeans when I say that, I'm describing you. That show was designed to apeal to people just as ignorant about the U.S. and it's cars as you are. Thanks for a) proving your ignorance and b) failing to get anything posted.

Notice how many generalizations I've made about Europeans and their choice of cars? None. You make the generalizations and broad statements and then balk at people correcting your ignorance as if their insulting all Europeans.

Offline moot

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« Reply #209 on: January 11, 2007, 12:46:07 AM »
I meant to bring this back to arguing cars rather than bickering.

I do think Clarkson just fiddles with the target audience.
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