Ketsu-Go Frame 1 Scores and Results

[Nefarious]

First I would like to try to get some understanding that when the Orders are given out to the CIC, they are expected to be followed and executed the way they have been written.

When I say specifically that your objectives are to Defend 4 different targets from Allied attacks I expect you to do just that. As I mentioned in the other thread, The distances in this map made me leary of having both sides take offensive targets in a grand scale as seen in most FSOs. The possibility of having the same problem would have greatly increased.

Never the less, uneventful FSO's do happen, but with the help of the logs and reviewing the CIC's orders, the problem can be investigated and some times a conclusion can be reached, other times it can't. I appreciate everyones concern's when a problem occurs in FSO, But I don't like when it  turns into insults and name calling. Please keep it civil and be respectful of others.

So to the Scores...

First...The problems with the Trains have forced them to be removed from the FSO as targets on this Terrain.

Second...The Allied CV's were not designated as Targets in the Axis orders and along with numerous other structures and objects in Mainland Japan destroyed by the Allies, These will not be scored and will not be counted as lost.

ALLIES:

Destroy Tokyo Petrol Tanks = 200 Points
Yamato and Escort = 100 (Only Yamato Sunk)
29 Aircraft Shot Down = 145 Points

TOTAL = 445 Points

AXIS:

38 Aircraft Shot Down = 190 Points

TOTAL = 190 Points

The Defense of these targets was important, and while they don't reflect on the Axis side in Points, they are important in negating the Allied Score.

Likewise, had the Allies destroyed every ship in the Yamato fleet, It would have nearly doubled thier score. Each side will have a turn in the role of defense.  Frame 2 will see the Allies in defense of there Fleets (equally scored) The 3rd and final frame both sides will have offensive and defensive roles equalling the same number of points.

Frame 2 Orders will be out tonight

AXIS CIC: 56th Fighter Group
ALLIED CIC: USMC

[Viper61]

Nef:

  Before I start let me say that I love this game as much as the next guy if not more.  I really enjoy being the CIC for a frame and its to bad these opertunites only come around about every 3 months.

   I (Viper 61) was the AXIS CIC and planned the mission.  I disagree with your scoring of Frame 01.  You have access to the order that I received.  No where in those orders will you see that the ALLIED ships could not be attacked.  No where.  Yes it was stated that I had a defensive mission and I carried out that mission to the best of my ability for the first 60 minutes as per the FSO rules.  Read them.  But I state again that the AXIS orders did not state I could not conduct offensive operations.  Read them.  If the AXIS side could not conduct offsensive operations the AXIS orders should have said that very clearly.  The orders I received provided me with ALLIED ship locations.  If the ALLIED ships could not be attacked then why was I provided their locations? onless they were targets I could hit.  Look at the maps provided.  If I could not conduct offensive operations then why was the AXIS side provided ordance at our bases?

  The points for ships provided in the FSO rules and in my AXIS order do not state AXIS ships or ALLIED ships.  They state Ship scoring.  Thus ALLIED ships have points.

  The AXIS targets assigned to me were defended for the first 60 minutes as per the FSO rules.  The AXIS division of resourse was about (40%, 40% and 20% per target) Which meets the complance of the FSO rules.  You and the other CM's may like the fact that I did not defend them for 120 minutes but I dont have to by your rules.  Only the first 60 minutes is required.  Likewise most of the AXIS targets were distroyed in the first 60 minutes anyway, so why should I defend a distroyed target?

  My job as the AXIS is to win for my side.  Winning in the FSO is decided by points and points alone.  The only point barring targets the AXIS side had that were:

        Planes
        Ships

  Because the ALLIED side had land targets that were worth points there was only one way for the AXIS side to gain points and that was by sinking ALLIED ships.  The ALLIED ship targets were provided to me by the CM's AXIS Operations Order to me.  Read it.

  In your text above you did not award AXIS points for 9 ALLIED ships sunk.  The logs show that they were sunk.  If the ALLIED ships wernt targets and couldnt be attacked then why wernt they industructable?  Using copies of the AXIS Operations Order I received or using the FSO rules show us all where the I or the AXIS side violated a rule.  Cut and paste them in here please.  Not your "intent" or "idea's" of what you wanted the players to do.  Just using facts please show us all the rules that were violated by myself or the AXIS side.

  I dont mind losing as you cant win everytime.  And we all know that the AXIS side is very hard to win especially in late war sceanrio's.  But I dont like seeing you or the CM's changing or adjusting scores because the scores did not end as you wanted.

  The following is my personnal comments to you:

  The scores for any FSO should be graded by the "logs", "FSO rules", "CM Operations Orders provided to each side" and nothing else.  It is clear you wanted a ALLIED victory in the first frame as you set up the 3 frames as you stated above (AXIS defending, ALLIED defending, both sides attacking).  Now because the AXIS side scored to many points to your liking your taking them away so that the frames can be fought as you want them.  Thats called cheating in my book and I never liked a cheat.  It appears to me now more than ever before that these FSO events are becoming "CANNED" events.

  No one wants to take part in a "Canned event".  Their not fun!  There has been several discussions on this before in the BBS and that is why there is a low turn out for the AXIS side in most scenario's because you set up the AXIS to lose them.  This is not WWII and we dont need to re-live the events to a "T".  I and everyone else know the AXIS lost.

  Sence you have elected to publish the scores for Frame 01, you can now not go back on your decision without losing face and I understand that.  But the canned scenario's need to end here or you'll lose squads and players to your canned events.  And dont say there not "Canned" because you stated that very clearly above.

  The FSO events are to be set up to a historical time period of WWII.  But the outcomes do not need to be historically accurate.  Just set up the sides fairly and let the better side win.  Thats what all the players want.  We pay for the game so give us what we want.

Viper 61

[yb11]

jest got to say i fill like we axis are geting ____ out of are points

[Joker312]

Guys.... no big deal......

Viper the rules were less than clear but the bottom line is we have fun. I enjoyed the frame and I know those that flew with me also had fun as usual. No problem.

FSO's and scenerios are a constant learning experience. I know from experience. I was a CM in AH for awhile. Its not easy and I am sure the CM team put alot of hard work into our evening of enjoyment. They will certainly re-evaluate the write up for any similar situation and ensure its crystal clear next frame.

Please dont let the score and misunderstanding of the rules ruin a great time.

All, as I have said before FSO, Scenerios, and the community are THE BEST part of AH.

[Nefarious]

I appreciate your cunning and your daring-do. And the 325th have always been one of my favorite squads to disperse orders too. I know you put a lot of work into what you do, I know its a very rewarding to take the role as CIC and see your plan unfold on Frday Nights.

I said in the orders...

1.Our main goal is to Defend the Yamato and her Escort, these ships will be steaming for Okinawa. There last known posistion was off the coast at 5,5 - 6,5 - 6,6 - 7,6 and should be steaming SSW towards Okinawa.  

2. We have also been tasked to defend two Rail targets, One is the Supply Train at 10,9,7 The other is a Supply Train at (16,12,6). We must also defend the 9 Petrol Tanks in the Tokyo area 16, 11, 7.

We are on the defensive, and our bomber aircraft are not needed. Defend the Homeland!

Unfortunatley, I must not have been clear enough. Your interpitation
of the orders had you defending the Japanese Homeland by attacking the Allied Fleets.

This isn't the first time this has happened, and its a crude reminder that I need to be even more specific in how I deliver orders.

Do I really need my Setup CM to disable ordnance because If I don't the players will take bombs? I guess I need to manage everything all the way down to Bomb Loadout, Fuel, and waypoints? That way everyone will see action and when people don't, I can clearly point at people and say why didnt you make waypoint 3 by T+48? It caused 6 squads to see no action at all.

I can do that. Matter of fact, I could do it very easily. We wouldnt have CICs and I would control everything from behind the Green curtain. Of course thats not what we want. We want the Squad CO's to have the oppurtunity to make there own decisions and lead there forces into battle.

Do you want me to start proofing the CIC orders? I will. If it means trivial situations like this don't occur again. This situation could of been avoided had I looked at your orders and compared them to the Allied orders...But do we need that too?

The situation it seems that after the brunt of the Allied attack your forces started arriving over the Allied Fleets. And instead of being able to rearm and refuel to continue there attacks some were left without CV's or unsafe locations to rearm and refuel.

Or maybe I should give a planeset with no orders, divide each side evenly and let them go at it? Every FSO I have done has had some new learning experience in it, this one is no different. When you figure out a way to do this successfully without the feeling of a "Canned" FSO let me know, we need people like you designing these events. I'm not sure how much longer I can do it.

[doobs]

nef you are doing a great job.

please dont be disencouraged(sp)

got a feeling the Fog of war played into this lot more than we know

and Viper I want you on my side for Scenarios, you would thrive there.
Would love to have more outside the box thinkers like you.

all

LONG LIVE FSO

[AKKaz]

Am wondering if FSO's should go the route of each side knowing in which frame they will and won't be attacked.  We already go the route of narrowing down which targets the other side will hit.  But to know that there is know worry about being attacked or that all resources can be total defense.  Especially when the historical planeset tends to really outweigh to one side.

Have to admit, trying to hit 7 ally carriers with the jap plane set/ordinance loadout with the allies on full defense with superior aircraft doesn't tend to lend itself to any hopes here.

But it should be an enjoyable FSO either way

Just my thoughts

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Viper61

 ...
 Because the ALLIED side had land targets that were worth points there was only one way for the AXIS side to gain points and that was by sinking ALLIED ships. The ALLIED ship targets were provided to me by the CM's AXIS Operations Order to me. Read it.
...
 

Um.. no.   The Axis gained points by destroying Allied aircraft and preventing the Allied aircraft from destroying their targets.  

No different than the 3 frames of Mighty Eighth.  The Axis had to defend against waves of Allied bombers. No opportunity to destroy ground targets.

As a matter of fact, in the Mighty Eighth series, a couple of the strat targets that were not on the target list were attacked by low-level allied bombers. Strafing and bombing on their way to the target area.  No credit was given to this damage, yet, I do believe at least one bomber was lost to ground fire and I think one set blew themselves up.

Back to this series:
The allied were only given specific targets to attack. Those are the only points they could gain(aside from enemy A/C destroyed ).  If you feel you deserve points for attacking targets you see fit, then why should the allies be restricted to just those mentioned targets?  Why not let them run free reign against all available targets?  Because then your argument would be 'How can I possibly defend against all the targets?'.. the answer is.. you can't.

That's why it's a relatively directed event.  Specify the targets and objectives and let the squadron commanders lay out the orders to make that happen.

Defense is not easy. Its a coordination effort.  Find the enemy first and coordinate the actions of different squads to intercept and defeat the attackers before they reach their targets.

The attackers have to choreograph their routes and strengths in such a way to try to get to their targets.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

[Viper61]

Good posts by all in fact I read several of them a couple of times to ensure what I was reading.  Doobs thank you for your complment.  Not going to go down the explaining my position rabbit hole any longer, enough said.

To the CM's:

Apart from the planning and outcome of Frame 01 when I read Nef's and Drones responses I can't help but think you both support scenario's / frames in which one side is stacked against the other in a "almost" no win scenario such as the last Frame.  It was clearly intended for the ALLIED side to win.

My observation:  Your putting more emphasis on historical accurcey and not on fairness of frames.  I dont speak for all, but I and others want a "fair" game frame for frame.  That is obvious to me from the amount of posts on these two threads (here and the AXIS AAR).  No one likes flying frames in which you don't have a chance of winning.

My request:
  Pick a historical time period and location (Land, countries, AC).  Divide up the sides fairly (Not to historical accurcey) to me this should be no more off sided than a 60/40 split in any event but as close to 50/50 as can be made.  Provide an even amount of "target" points pre side pre frame for each side.  Allow each side to plan and exacute their missions as they want within the rules of the FSO which are fine as is.  Thats all.
  The side that can provide the best plan.  Provide the best command and control will most likely win.  If correctly run the CM's should be surprised by who wins each frame and won't have to interpret what happened and adjust points according to a predetermined plan.
  I would think the CM teams would prefer this to the current situation because currently you have to mirco manage the event to ensure that the scenario is fought the way you want it so that the outcome is according to your overall plan for the scenario (3 frames).  This has got to take a lot of time to coordinate and run.  Wouldn't fair frames be much easier?  I know it would be as much fun or more fun as anything goes as long as you stay within the FSO rules.  Violate the rules and lose points accordingly.  One last item in this type of scenario the CM's would most likely never find themselves in a position to explain why they deducted points.  All you have to do is enforce the clear rules of the FSO and nothing more.

  Can this be done?  Will you do it?

Viper 61

[skernsk]

Viper you may not agree with my comments, and that is fine.  I guess you and I are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum.  I no longer participate in FSO and perhaps am not welcome here, but here goes.


My request:

Pick a historical time period and location (Land, countries, AC). Divide up the sides fairly (Not to historical accurcey) to me this should be no more off sided than a 60/40 split in any event but as close to 50/50 as can be made.

In most FSO frames (which the CM Team tracks) numbers drop for the Allied side.  By having a slight buffer this compensates for low attendance.  I'm sure they could go with 50-50 but they would have to get hard bellybutton and remove squads who don't show up and cause the unbalance.  Are you prepared to be removed if your squad drops attendance in a frame?  


Provide an even amount of "target" points pre side pre frame for each side.

Nef did this.  You were able to score the EXACT same amount of points last frame if I understand this correctly.  You score points based on planes shot down as did that Allied.  And you would have been awarded points for any target or ship not destroyed.


Allow each side to plan and exacute their missions as they want within the rules of the FSO which are fine as is. Thats all.

Your mission was to DEFEND the targets outlined.  If you mission included sinking ships fine, but it did not.  So by all means plan your mission.  If you choose to sink ships or even capture a damn base fine, but you must defend your objectives .... and you will not get points for anything but the objectives.  



The side that can provide the best plan. Provide the best command and control will most likely win.

Agreed.  



If correctly run the CM's should be surprised by who wins each frame and won't have to interpret what happened and adjust points according to a predetermined plan.

There are always pre-determined objectives.  This is the only way to have squads all see action.  



I would think the CM teams would prefer this to the current situation because currently you have to mirco manage the event to ensure that the scenario is fought the way you want it so that the outcome is according to your overall plan for the scenario (3 frames). This has got to take a lot of time to coordinate and run. Wouldn't fair frames be much easier? I know it would be as much fun or more fun as anything goes as long as you stay within the FSO rules. Violate the rules and lose points accordingly. One last item in this type of scenario the CM's would most likely never find themselves in a position to explain why they deducted points. All you have to do is enforce the clear rules of the FSO and nothing more.


Fair frames would be much easier, but its not all black and white.  Some terrains do not lend themselves to equal opportunity with attack and defend.  As Nef pointed out you were totally defensive because the terrain dictated.  His intention was to equalize the event by having the Allied be totally defensive next frame.  Sometimes you gotta see the big picture.  I used to plan frames and was not happy unless I had the exact same number of possible points on both sides by frame 3.  How we got there was not always fair.  In some frames I had a side on defensive as you were.  At the bottom of my orders I explained to the CiC why I had to do that and thanked them in advance for understanding.  I also picked a select few CiC's for this as not all would welcome the challenge.

The ultimate frame is one that ends in a draw.  Often frames end in the targets being smoking ruins.  That is good, it usually means there was a scrap and air battles among some of the best squads took place.  The difference in who won or lost is in how many planes were lost.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Viper61


...To the CM's:

Apart from the planning and outcome of Frame 01 when I read Nef's and Drones responses I can't help but think you both support scenario's / frames in which one side is stacked against the other in a "almost" no win scenario such as the last Frame.  It was clearly intended for the ALLIED side to win.  ...
 

Sorry, Viper, but I do not see where the design of this frame/event is stacked against one side or the other. We make every effort to provide a balanced environment for the participants.  Each FSO writeup is submitted to the CM team for comments on matchups and other balancing issues.

Now, this is based on my perception of the aircraft matchups and capabilities.  Perhaps our perceptions differ?

If you feel that the Japanese plane-set is inferior to the American plane-set, then, yes, you could be justified in your stance.  Personally, I've encountered the KI-84, KI-61, and NiK2 in the various Allied craft and have had my butt handed to me far more often than the other way.  

During this frame, I was in the formation of TBMs slated to attack the Yamato.  As we approached the target area, we heard reports of Nikis from 20k to the deck and I'm pretty sure everybodys sphincters were in full FTL Clench.  ( FTL is Fruit of the Loom, for you Calvin Cline types )

Fortunately, our lead fighters removed the problem and we had a pretty clear shot.. except for one KI-61 that got a few shots on me on my pull out.

If you feel that it cannot be balanced without an equal amount of attacking objectives for each side, I direct you to frame 2 of Mighty Eighth.  The Allies got clobbered due to aircraft losses and failure to destroy targets.

Now, I'm  not sure how long you have been involved in FSO.  I can say that, normally, there are equal offensive and defensive targets for each side. This is in our design guidelines and we only vary from them on occasion.  The last 2 have been exceptions to this rule for reasons stated already.  

We make every effort to provide a balanced event.  Some events are slated towards bomber/escort vs. defenders, others are JABO/escort vs. defenders ( both ways ), anti-ship, anti-city, anti-base..etc.  We try to mix up the match-ups and still maintain a touch on the historical aspect.

We cannot please everybody all the time.  If you don't like the specific event you're in, just wait and the next or one after will probably be more to your liking.  Others have found that FSOs are not their preferred venue.

Thank you for your input.