Planes that Aces High forgot

[nirvana]

Sadly, I might have to go IN on this one.

[Serenity]

Originally posted by Lusche
And why do you still use german planes? You seem to measure with different scales...

I fail to recall any german military officer eating a prisoner's liver because he thought it would make him stronger.

Again, its not the Japanese leadership I have issues with, its the military.

Its not the German military I have issues with, its the leadership.

Two very different scenarios.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Serenity
I fail to recall any german military officer eating a prisoner's liver because he thought it would make him stronger.

Again, its not the Japanese leadership I have issues with, its the military.

Its not the German military I have issues with, its the leadership.

Two very different scenarios.

You are falling for that old and very wrong myth of a "saubere Wehrmacht" = "clean military"... but thats for some other thread, dont wanna hijack.

[Serenity]

Originally posted by Lusche
You are falling for that old and very wrong myth of a "saubere Wehrmacht" = "clean military"... but thats for some other thread, dont wanna hijack.

Not to hijack either, but in my oppinion, no military can be blamed for the acts of its government. I dislike the direction the USA is going at the moment. Or, more so, I disagree with it. I still entirely intend to join the United States Military, and fight to defend my country should that become necessary. I still dislike the political direction we are going in. the Wehrmacht was fighting per orders. They fought for their glory, yes. They took priding in shooting down other planes, yes. But they didnt start the concentration camps. As far as I know, they didnt man the camps either. They did their job, through to the end, just as our boys did, and every other country's military. Its the intentional cannibalism that bothers me about the Japanese military. Reading and hearing of such sick, disgusting acts was entirely revolting, but I kept reading, I kept listening, because it was history like it or not. I cannot stand the 'Third Reich'. I despise it. I think it is the wrost thing to every happen to Germany as far as politics. But the fighting men... boys really, I do not blame them, and never will, for the actions of the nazi party. I DO blame the Japanese military for eating people because they didnt do it out of necessity, they did it because they wanted to. Plain and simple.  Again, apologies for the hijack.

[1K3]

Its not the German military I have issues with, its the leadership.

Two very different scenarios.

Tell that to 6,000,000 Jews and 27,000,000 Russians who were cleansed to make room for their ideal "Lebensraum"...

[Serenity]

Originally posted by 1K3
Tell that to 6,000,000 Jews and 27,000,000 Russians who were cleansed to make room for their ideal "Lebensraum"...

And who came up with this brilliant idea? Hartman? Galland? That young leutennant on his first flight across the pond?

[Kweassa]

Google is your friend. Search the words "World War Two" and "Japan" under video. There is some truely disturbing stuff... Granted the japanese soldiers (or the higher ranks at least) were probably the most disturbing people I have ever heard of to the point where I refuse to even fly Japanese planes because, well, call me a racist, but I refuse to contribute to fame of ANYTHING used by the Japanese people.

 And you think I am unaware of such things?

 I am a native of a country which spent many years of annexation by Japanese colonial rule. Anything the Americans went and experienced through 4 years of possible Japanese war crimes during the Pacific War, we went through almost tenfold during the 36 years of colonial rule, so don't preach to me about 'disturbing' stuff.  

 What Moore is implying is that the fame of a certain airplane, namely the Zero, is undeserving because it is from Japan. He associates his malice towards wartime realities to the modern day Japanese in an extreme national/racial bias and you are openly agreeing to it.

 Because some cruel things happened during the war, or some of those things were officially propagated by their military during the war, you and Moore view anything having to do with the ethnic Japanese and their culture, achievments, are automatically deserving of antagonization by association of their ancestry which participated in a war that happened 60 years ago.

 Well I call that a crock of bullshi*.


 Especially when your own stance towards the Germans seem almost neutral. You have no problems in flying German planes, despite the German military, its supreme command, and the politicians all conspired to the "Final Solution" of the "Jew Problem" and brought forth on this Earth one of the most shameful crimes towards humanity. And rightfully so, if I amight add. What's an individual soldier, or an individual vehicle, got to do with the Nazis and their political attitudes?

 The real bullshi* about all this is you naturally distinguish these stuff when you come to the Germans. You don't associate every part of their war crimes with their human achievments in the field of military tactics nor technical machinery. And yet, you don't have the same neutral view towards the Japanese.

 If that's not a double-standard or a blatant display of intentional bias towards the Japanese, then what is?

[Serenity]

Originally posted by Kweassa
And you think I am unaware of such things?

 I am a native of a country which spent many years of annexation by Japanese colonial rule. Anything the Americans went and experienced through 4 years of possible Japanese war crimes during the Pacific War, we went through almost tenfold during the 36 years of colonial rule, so don't preach to me about 'disturbing' stuff.  

 What Moore is implying is that the fame of a certain airplane, namely the Zero, is undeserving because it is from Japan. He associates his malice towards wartime realities to the modern day Japanese in an extreme national/racial bias and you are openly agreeing to it.

 Because some cruel things happened during the war, or some of those things were officially propagated by their military during the war, you and Moore view anything having to do with the ethnic Japanese and their culture, achievments, are automatically deserving of antagonization by association of their ancestry which participated in a war that happened 60 years ago.

 Well I call that a crock of bullshi*.


 Especially when your own stance towards the Germans seem almost neutral. You have no problems in flying German planes, despite the German military, its supreme command, and the politicians all conspired to the "Final Solution" of the "Jew Problem" and brought forth on this Earth one of the most shameful crimes towards humanity. And rightfully so, if I amight add. What's an individual soldier, or an individual vehicle, got to do with the Nazis and their political attitudes?

 The real bullshi* about all this is you naturally distinguish these stuff when you come to the Germans. You don't associate every part of their war crimes with their human achievments in the field of military tactics nor technical machinery. And yet, you don't have the same neutral view towards the Japanese.

 If that's not a double-standard or a blatant display of intentional bias towards the Japanese, then what is?

I have no problems with their culture what-so-ever. Once more, IT IS THEIR MILITARY I DESPISE. And only the on of the 1940s. I said that above. I dont mind japan, I dont mind the japanese citizens. I do refuse to contributre in any way to the fame of anything OF THE JAPANESE MILITARY DURING 1940!!!. Yes, the SUPREME HIGH COMMAND was part of the Nazi holocaust. But the average, every-day pilot or infantry officer wasnt. YOUR AVERAGE, EVERYDAY INFANTRY OFFICER DID COMMIT CANIBALISM, INTENTIONALLY, WITHOUT THE NECESSITY FOR IT. THIS IS PARTICULARLY EVIDENT ON THE ISLAND OF CHICHI JIMA. Yes, I am biased against the JAPANESE MILITARY. NO I AM N-O-T BIASED AGAINS THE JAPANESE CIVILIANS. YES I AM BIASED AGAINST THE NAZI PARTY. NO I AM NOT BIASED AGAINST THE GERMAN MILITARY.

[Kweassa]

And that's why I call it a crock of bullshi*.

I have no problems with their culture what-so-ever. Once more, IT IS THEIR MILITARY I DESPISE. And only the on of the 1940s. I said that above. I dont mind japan, I dont mind the japanese citizens. I do refuse to contributre in any way to the fame of anything OF THE JAPANESE MILITARY DURING 1940!!!

 ... and the end result is you don't fly Japanese planes.

 However, for the Germans you don't hesitate to express these views;

Yes, the SUPREME HIGH COMMAND was part of the Nazi holocaust. But the average, every-day pilot or infantry officer wasnt.

 ... and you have no problems flying German planes.

 Not to mention your views on the individual Japanese soldier is;

YOUR AVERAGE, EVERYDAY INFANTRY OFFICER DID COMMIT CANIBALISM, INTENTIONALLY, WITHOUT THE NECESSITY FOR IT. THIS IS PARTICULARLY EVIDENT ON THE ISLAND OF CHICHI JIMA.

 So, because some war crazed group of soldiers committed such horrible things on the island of Chichijima, you conclude every part of the Japanese military, including the soldiers, pilots, and their planes, is undeserving of any honor nor respect expected towards a someone who is fullfilling their duty as a soldier in defense of his own homeland.  

 ...

 Then, my friend, what's preventing you from finding some insane bits of cruelty and malice towards another human being in the shameful moments of American military? I'm sure there are some cases of war-time atrocities committed by US soldiers during 1941~1945.

 Or what about the high levels of antagonization or cruelty displayed by the German soldiers assigned in Auschwitz? Not all the every day soldier there was innocent. Some of them openly hurt the Jews, shot them with no reason, beat them to a pulp. So is this such conduct of hatred not a proof that the German every day soldiers were also antihumanistic?

 What's making you forgive them (and have no doubts about flying German planes), and not the same towards the Japanese soldiers, huh?

 Does a group of soldiers have to be cannibal to be deemed "not worthy of propagating fame by using some of their war-time equiment in virtual reality"? Is that it? Is it because the Germans or Americans didn't eat their opponents when they outright killed them in a purposely cruel manner, that they don't get the same amount of despise?
 

 Maybe I should dig up what some American 'every day soldier' did to Korean civilians during the Korean war, and make it my crusade banner as means to prevent people from flying US planes. I sure wouldn't want to add to the "fame" of the US military by flying their planes when some of their soldiers did some bad stuff to civilians during the war.

 I'm sure you will join me in my crusade, Serenity. We will go looking through historic archives and dig up every piece of maliceful conducts committed by each of the Nations that partook in WW2 - and we'll ban people from flying every bit of plane in the game.

 That's the human thing to do, right?

[Serenity]

Actually, if you were to find things like that and put them here, that might well stop me...

And its not just the island of chichi-jima. It happened ALL OVER CHINA TOO! Granted, Auschwitz was hell, and I despise the Nazi party, the Gestapo, the SS and the SA. However, those are seperate entities. I have seen to damned many first-hand accounts of German personel who did not in any way support the Nazi party, but fought for their country. Perhaps there is mroe to it. Perhaps its where I grew up. But in the concious section of my mind, I despise the japanese military for that fact. I dont despise Germany. I dont feel the german military contributed to holocaust nearly as much as the Japanese military allowed, and even suggested canibalism for enjoyment. Like I said above, call me a racist, I really dont care. Some of the things I say are quite racist. But I really think your ever-day Japanese officer was responsible for many more attorcities than your every-day German officer.

[mussie]

Serenity

Perhaps you should read this story

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196737

[Kweassa]

However, those are seperate entities. I have seen to damned many first-hand accounts of German personel who did not in any way support the Nazi party, but fought for their country. Perhaps there is mroe to it. Perhaps its where I grew up. But in the concious section of my mind, I despise the japanese military for that fact.

 Which would attest to your lack of information, or perhaps interest in matters, which is itself a form of bias. What you're basically saying is some German military personnel were not inherently Nazis, so you have no problems in disassociating the German individual and the crimes of their war machine.

 But for some reason the same logic does not apply to the Japanese to you. Under your logic, since war time atrocities happened a lot in Japanese claimed territories between '30~'45, it must mean EVERY Japanese military personnel were cannibalistic demons.

 You are saying the German soldiers who did not in anyway supported the Nazis, still fought their country, and you honor that fact. But the Japanese soldiers were somehow all involved in the atrocities of their war marchine, and it cannot be forgiven.

 

I dont despise Germany. I dont feel the german military contributed to holocaust nearly as much as the Japanese military allowed, and even suggested canibalism for enjoyment.

 So eating a person is more atrocious then gassing them death in concentration camps? You think there were no German soldiers who hurt Jews for personnel hatred? You think all Japanese soldiers hurt Allied prisoners just for fun?

Like I said above, call me a racist, I really dont care. Some of the things I say are quite racist. But I really think your ever-day Japanese officer was responsible for many more attorcities than your every-day German officer.

 Tell that to the 6 million Jews.

 Or better yet, tell that to the many Japanese soldiers who were neither as political as their leaders, nor any more inherently inhuman than some other Western soldier. As the latter days of the war came, many were young people conscripted or volunteered into the Imperial Japanese Army, since they were told their homeland was in grave danger. They were no different from any one of us.

 The only reason you have this fantasy about every German soldier being scot-free of war crimes, while every Japanese soldier being barbaric cannibals, is one is white and the other is yellow.

 Yes' I'd call that racist.

[Scherf]

Originally posted by Serenity
But the average, every-day pilot or infantry officer wasnt.  

Bzzzt. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

[Serenity]

Hmm, lets see... SS and the Gestapo arrested and gassed prisoners. The luftwaffe didnt. Sure they took captives, but they didnt gas them. Some the Stalags, particularly those set aside for the NCOs were run by some absolutely inhuman people, but overall, the US prisioners, (At least the airmen) were treated decently. American captives didnt have to worry about being EATEN. The japanese heirarchy, from the highest officer down to the lowliest cadet thought that eating their enemy gave them strenght. Now, in the 17th century this would be acceptable, to some. But in the 1940s? I dont respect the SS. I feel about the Nazi party the same way I do about the Japanese military, and thus will never fly under a slogan such as "Wafffen SS" or the like, (Such as those I have seen other players here post in their avatars) Please, find me incidences of Wehrmacht officers, FRONT LINE SOLDIERS who:

1) gassed prisioners
2) Tortured prisoners
3) ATE prisoners

Find me more than 1 or two incidences of that and then we will talk. But the fact is, just because they were German, doesnt mean they supported the holocaust. Same as I dont blame the japanese people for the behavior of their officers.

[Scherf]

Sorry. Silly me. I thought civilian lives counted for as much as military lives.

Wehrmacht. Eastern Front. Ought to cover it.

If not, this may help.

http://www.amazon.com/German-Army-Genocide-Prisoners-Civilians/dp/1565845250

Refer to your original statement re: "the SUPREME HIGH COMMAND was part of the Nazi holocaust. But the average, every-day pilot or infantry officer wasnt."