Author Topic: It's the Tribes, Stupid  (Read 1180 times)

Offline Toad

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« on: January 08, 2007, 07:47:24 PM »
It's the Tribes, Stupid

An interesting view by the author of Gates of Fire on what our problems are in dealing with the Iraq/Afghanistan situation.

The thesis is simple:

Quote
In other words, the clash of East and West is at bottom not about religion. It's about two different ways of being in the world. Those ways haven't changed in 2300 years. They are polar antagonists, incompatible and irreconcilable.

The West is modern and rational; its constituent unit is the nation. The East is ancient and visceral; its constituent unit is the tribe.



I found it thought provoking and interesting. I think many will disagree with his assessment of what to do.

Quote
In the end, unless we're ready to treat them they way we did Geronimo, the tribe is unbeatable. They're just too crazy. They're not like us. Tolerance and open-mindedness are not virtues to them; they're signs of weakness. The tribe is too rigid to bend, and it can't be negotiated with.



The theory does align with why Saddam didn't kneel to the UN sanctions or inspections. It predicts what Iran will do as well.

I enjoyed it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 08:16:29 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lasersailor184

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 07:55:39 PM »
The problem isn't the societal structure of the tribe.  The muslim religion was at the most power ever and advanced in the world several hundred years ago.  Since then, it has gone into the ****ter.

The problem isn't muslims, it's the muslim religious and political leaders.  Once you figure out how to get rid of them, I think the muslim people will get back to their original glory.
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Offline Toad

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 08:17:01 PM »
I guess you didn't read it then.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ack-Ack

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 08:21:16 PM »
Interesting article.  You can add Africa to the tribes section as well.  Quite of bit of the strife we see in modern Africa is directly attributed to the borders that were drawn by the colonial powers, often splitting up tribal territory.  The genocide that took place in Rwanda is a perfect example of this problem.


ack-ack
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Offline Yeager

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 08:28:02 PM »
If we could just get this tribe to assemble all in one location......lets say Mecca, for instance....then we could set off a really big flash bang and be done with it.

Or we could do like the liberal socialists want to do, and be friends with them, sympathetic to their inbred ignorance....heck they might even let us into the tribe, or at least be slaves......
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Offline Toad

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 08:28:23 PM »
At least there's never been any problems in these African countries.  :)

Sudan
Lesotho
Botswana
Cameroon  
Cape Colony South Africa  
Egypt  
The Gambia
Ghana
Kenya
Mauritius
Natal South Africa
Nigeria
Zambia  
Malawi
Orange Free State South Africa
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Zimbabwe
Somalia
Namibia Sudan
Swaziland
Tanzania
Ghana
Transvaal South Africa  
Uganda
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline john9001

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 09:18:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Interesting article.  You can add Africa to the tribes section as well.  Quite of bit of the strife we see in modern Africa is directly attributed to the borders that were drawn by the colonial powers, often splitting up tribal territory.  The genocide that took place in Rwanda is a perfect example of this problem.


ack-ack


yeah, blame it on the europeans, the tribes were killing each other long before the "colonial powers" got there.

Offline rpm

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 09:35:57 PM »
No Toad, you are simply an Ameri-hater. President Bush knows what God wants the United States to do. If we just stay the course we will win the hearts and minds of the Arab world. Why don't you support the troops? Are you sleeping with Nancy Pelosi?
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Offline Mark Luper

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 09:40:30 PM »
Interesting read Toad. I have wondered about something like that though I never thought of Tribes as being the root of it.

Mark
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Offline lukster

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 09:41:24 PM »
We are all tribal. Some tribes are just bigger than others.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 09:44:49 PM »
Perhaps the problem is that, unlike the western world, they've yet to experience war on so vast and horrible a scale as to make the idea unpalatable. They've had relatively small, regional conflagrations in the recent past, (and truly massive and horrible in their history) but nothing so terrible lately as to truly lay waste to a large part of the region, say on the scale of World War II. True, in much of the region, they've yet to reach the level Europe did before World War II, but there is enough industrialized and truly civilized territory that they could probably learn the same lesson. It may be that nearly every civilization/culture/region must experience something that horrendous to make them decide armed conflict of one sort or another is not the most viable and enjoyable method to resolve differences. They may actually be working towards bringing about that very thing now, though.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 09:47:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
No Toad, you are simply an Ameri-hater. President Bush knows what God wants the United States to do. If we just stay the course we will win the hearts and minds of the Arab world. Why don't you support the troops? Are you sleeping with Nancy Pelosi?


Could you try a new shtick? That one is beginning to reek of rancid feet left in old gym shoes too long. A new and different canned response would be almost, well, refreshing.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Toad

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 09:50:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
No Toad, you are simply an Ameri-hater.  


At least I'm not one of the "blame America first!" crowd.  :)

And you may have drawn the absolutely wrong assumption about my view of the author's conclusion. You do know how we treated Geronimo, right?  :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lasersailor184

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2007, 10:04:36 PM »
Oh, I read it.  I also noted how the author lost any semblance of credibility when he made this claim:

Quote
The people we're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan live that life 24/7/365 and they've been living it for the past ten thousand years. They like it. It's who they are. They're not going to change.


Iraq is the perfect antithesis of this, as well as most of the middle east that is west of and including Persia.


What I said still stands true.  There was a time when Islam was the pinnacle of civilization.  And that wasn't because everyone else was slacking.  It was because they worked their butts off to get there.  

Now we have Islam being several centuries behind the rest of the world.

The only cause of this is the Islamic religious and political leaders.  They hold their people back so they can gain power and money
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Toad

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It's the Tribes, Stupid
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2007, 10:13:04 PM »
You are absolutely right; there are no tribes in Iraq and tribalism is totally unknown there.

U r teh GrEaTeSt an mostest bestest.

Thank you for your insights!

Now run along and let us discuss this.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!