Author Topic: What has happend to 30mm in 109....  (Read 932 times)

Offline HABICHT

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« on: May 14, 2000, 12:20:00 PM »
had some bad fights last week.
flew 109g10 with 30mm.

twice i hit a b26 with 7+ rounds of 30mm.
NO STRUCTURAL DAMAGE visible, b26's both flew straight away.

friday evening i hit a p51 with 4!! rounds
of 30mm....no results visible!!!
HAVE IT ON FILM!!!
i only shooted the 30mm, so no one can say
that these pings were from the mg131.

had i 3 times bad luck, ore is there something wrong with the buffs?????
pls, rework the 30mm again HT!

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JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-14-2000).]

Offline JoeMud

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2000, 02:13:00 PM »
30mm is messed up I got a vid of me attacking a sleeping b17 from about 100 yards out got about 9 30mm hits..didnt even fire the 13mms and then He wakes up and shoots me down with only 1 eng out....he shoulda been toast

Offline Citabria

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2000, 02:32:00 PM »
could be lag

I always find the 30mm to be a 1 hit 1 kill weapon on fighters but I'm sure that with buffs increased toughness you have to hit one little area to down it with just a few 30mm
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Offline Hristo

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2000, 03:12:00 PM »
Watch this film.

film

After a long chase P 51 gets hit by MK 108 30 mm.

This was a test sortie of MK 108, so I fired 30 mm only - no MGs fired at all there !

Note the number of 30mm strikes and where they hit. Then watch the damage.


Watching film is slow motion, I counted the strikes :

Left wing: 2 30 mm hits

Right wing: 4 30 mm hits

Left horizontal stab: 1 30mm hit

Right horizontal stab: 2 30mm hits

Fuselage near left wing root and cockpit: 1 30mm hit

----------------

A total of 10 30 mm hits !!!

And guess what ? P 51 loses only right wing, spirals down and crashes.

What material do they use for those stabs ?  

With so many 30mm hit it should have been vaporized !

Mk 108 is already hard to bring on target. Why making it harder ?




[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-14-2000).]

funked

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2000, 04:34:00 PM »
The weird thing is that MK 108 is good against tanks.  It should be useless against tanks!  But it should obliterate a fighter with 2 or 3 hits.

It seems to be just the opposite here.

Offline Citabria

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2000, 04:41:00 PM »
what funked said
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Hristo

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2000, 12:26:00 AM »
Mk 108 is only LW barrel armament which can take out tanks in AH. I agree it just doesn't feel right, since it is a HE round, not an anti tank round. MG 151/20 is useless.

As for HE shell sponge P 51, note that so many hits on wings and stabs did not cause any missing ailerons, flaps or elevators. Nothing !

Only 4 30 mm hits knocked out whole wing. It should have gone with 1 ping. As if our MK 108 fires AP rounds or duds are modeled.

AFAIK, MK 108 did not use AP rounds. They were all HE, if I am correct. Shell weight was some 300 g. Let's say 2/3 of weight is HE component (although it is probably even more in German rounds). 10 30 mm shells is now 2 kg of high explosives (probably even more), detonating on contact with the plane. Something very wrong here.


Another thing :

We all know buffs have been hardened for playability reasons. The explanation was how many times single buff went over Germany, how many times even 4 buffs went in mission etc. Now, I can agree with this. But when these same hardened buffs DO fly in formation ? 10+ planes ?

I am ready to say that these same super-tough buffs ruined one of the scenarios. We took gondola armed 109s, but buffs just did not go down. And they were flying in close formation. Of course, their .50 cals shredded 109s no problem.

Now, please model guns and armor how they really were. No playability tweaks, please.

Leave cannon Hog too, if its guns are correctly modeled. No playability tweaks. IMO, cannon Hog thanks its long range lethality to icons, not to Hispanos.

Offline StSanta

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2000, 12:37:00 AM »
On the other hand, sometimes the 30mm works too well. Against other 09's it seems  .

Someone put one or two rounds in me as I was engaged with another 109 in a scissors maneuver. We had just started and I figured he might get off one or two pings, and that was what happened. My 109 just disintegrated. I just laughed. Was a great shot and totally surprised me.

Now, I've applied 30mm massage to quite some number of fighter planes, and also noticed that it does take an awful lot of hits. Hit one with 8 30mm, from fuselage to right wing from dead siz, 150 yds, but nothing. Damned P-51 flew on. Maybe coincidence. But if the Hispanos can take a fighter down with 8-10 hits, so should the 30mm.



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Offline Hristo

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2000, 02:10:00 AM »
Just what I experienced. Got pinged by a 30mm in TA once. Vertical stab+rudder, both horizontal stabs+elevators were instantly gone.

And yes, I was in 109G-10.

So, MK 108 is an anti-109 weapon now ?  

Seriously, compared to MG 151/20, MK 108 is useless. 10 MG 151/20 hits on P 51 from that range would surely down it. Not to mention higher rate of fire and higher round velocity.


But, once fixed, MK 108 will be the king of scissors.

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-15-2000).]

Offline Koed

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2000, 03:27:00 AM »
Dunno if this has anything to do with it.. but 2 days ago I flew my  heavy spit behind a  rookie/sleeping b-17 and emptied all 1000 cannon rounds in its fusilage..looked like firecrackers going off all over the plane.. but the damn plane didn't even raise an eyebrow.. there was no visible damage what so ever.. then I banked right and lost host connection.

Offline Fishu

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2000, 01:15:00 PM »
I have always myself avoided using of 30mm because everytime I've check it out does it work today, I've had negative results which makes single MG151/20 far more better.
I could hit down fighters with use of 15-25 rounds from 20mm, that means I could get 11-5 kills per flight, but with 30mm I got far less, even with hits.
Many times I hit plane without a effect, and bombers, those were pain, few times bounced them for over 10 times, usually in wing or directly to tail feathers.
With single 20mm I could of made it with more accuracy, from further away and quicker, with less use of ammunition in percentages.

Also few times experienced that I shot fighters once or twice so that they said they received hit sounds, but they never had ANY damage.

Offline -ammo-

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2000, 01:25:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by HABICHT:
had some bad fights last week.
flew 109g10 with 30mm.

twice i hit a b26 with 7+ rounds of 30mm.
NO STRUCTURAL DAMAGE visible, b26's both flew straight away.

friday evening i hit a p51 with 4!! rounds
of 30mm....no results visible!!!
HAVE IT ON FILM!!!
i only shooted the 30mm, so no one can say
that these pings were from the mg131.

had i 3 times bad luck, ore is there something wrong with the buffs?????
pls, rework the 30mm again HT!



yes please--can i see the film? thanks

saved4sure@esn.net
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Pongo

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2000, 02:29:00 PM »
I know these kinds of replies are anoying but...
I got 2 b17s in a 30mm g10(no gondolas) last week.
I had pretty much given up on the 30 but took it for a change... Still had 25 rounds left..

Offline Hristo

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2000, 02:40:00 PM »
30 mm is not totally weak. Nobody says that.

It is just terribly inconsistent.

Especially P 51s seem to be imune to it from time to time (Habicht and I experienced this).

I am also interested in seeing Habicht's film.

There is probably a bug somwehere in MK 108 or damage model.

Offline Citabria

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What has happend to 30mm in 109....
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2000, 04:08:00 PM »
could this be similar to the problem sometimes found in tank vs tank battles where the tank you fire at can take up to 10 AP hits before cooking off?
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