Author Topic: A New Way Forward In Iraq (Read 5538 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #150 on:** January 14, 2007, 10:42:25 AM »

Oddly.. we all seem to be thinking in a very straight line here... Perhaps it is the sensationalized only news we hear. The plan is not just about sending more troops. There are deadlines and goals to meet by the iraqis.

I was listening to the deputy prime minister of iraq and their ambassador on, of all things, NPR.

The NPR guy seemed to be disapointed in the conversation... I don't think he would have settled for anything less than the iraqis saying that they hated us and wanted us gone and that they all wanted the sadman back.

What was really being said was that the iraqis realized that this was their last chance to get it together and that they needed to work a lot faster toward this goal... they also said that they can not do it without some help from us for the next few years.. they realize that they have goals to meet and strangely... they admitted that they were being politicians for the last few years and doing more to prop up their power than to get things done.

I don't know how it will all work out but if they do start meeting some goals we might see things turn around pretty rapidly.

I have a feeling that a lot of guys here would be unhappy if that happened tho.

lazs

lukster · « **Reply #151 on:** January 14, 2007, 10:59:16 AM »

I didn't care for Dennis Miller much in the 80's but he's growing on me.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?011207/011207_hc_miller&Hannity_Colmes&Real%20Free%20Speech&acc&Opinion&-1&Opinion&164&&&new

Hap · « **Reply #152 on:** January 14, 2007, 11:38:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
Camel jockey is no more disparaging than redneck which is bandied about quite freely here. However, since it appears to offend the delicate and PC sensitivity of some, I'll refrain from being so calloused.

I think you're over reacting. Speaking for myself, some of the opinions expressed here are just so bizarre that they are beyond the pale. It's like watching "Lord of the Flies" except the kids are now pot-bellied middle aged nuts-o's.

Anyway, "name calling" always encourages me to take what a person says less seriously rather than make me perk up and think, "now this person has something to say, and I want to pay attention."

Except when the adjective nuts-o is used.

FWIW

hap

oboe · « **Reply #153 on:** January 14, 2007, 11:56:26 AM »

I just found that NPR interview on their website and listened to it. Here is the link. The transcript is available on the same page.

I must not be as perceptive a listener as Laz- I wasn't able to detect the disappointment in the interviewer's voice or discern his unspoken wish that the Iraqi DPM admit a hatred for the U.S. and a desire to have Saddam back. Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih is a Kurd, so it seems unlikely to me that he would want to live under Saddam Hussein again.

Salih is an impressive figure - educated in England, he has a BS in Civil Engineering, an MS in Computer Modelling and PhD in Oceanography.

I think Laz's summary of the DPMs comments is pretty fair account - that up to now the politicians were just being politicians. Looking over some of his answers I'd say their still being politicians. I was disappointed he didn't get a sense that they were on a timeline to show progress, and he really stepped around the issue of telling us whether the Iraqi government was in favor of the additional troops.

Toad · « **Reply #154 on:** January 14, 2007, 08:08:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
.. they also said that they can not do it without some help from us for the next few years.. lazs

They're screwed then.

They'll be getting the same support from the 110th Congress that the South Vietnamese got from the 93rd Congress.

Quote

In December 1974, the Democratic majority in Congress passed the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974, which cut off all military funding to the South Vietnamese government and made unenforceable the peace terms negotiated by Nixon.

oboe · « **Reply #155 on:** January 15, 2007, 07:18:39 AM »

Bush has said he has made his decision and he is going forward with the deployment, no matter what Congress says or does.

National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley says once the troops are in harm's way, Congress will support them. (I assume he's referring to the Democrat's aversion to cutting funding this time, as opposed to what they did in 1974).

So the administration's thinking here is apparently to get these additional troops into harm's way as quickly as possible.

lukster · « **Reply #156 on:** January 15, 2007, 08:54:45 AM »

When asked if the White House was ignoring the will of the American people, Cheney said no president worth his salt would make big decisions based on polls. "You cannot simply stick your finger up in the wind and say, 'Gee, public opinion's against; we'd better quit."

I think about half of the people in this country are trying to eliminate their salt intake.

Eagler · « **Reply #157 on:** January 15, 2007, 09:00:07 AM »

America does not have the stomach and in the end we will lose

good news is that in 20 to 30 years, jobs will be outsourced here from around the world for $10.00 an hour and Mexico will have the illegal immigrant issue as we head south to greener pastures ...

oboe · « **Reply #158 on:** January 15, 2007, 09:37:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Eagler
America does not have the stomach and in the end we will lose

good news is that in 20 to 30 years, jobs will be outsourced here from around the world for $10.00 an hour and Mexico will have the illegal immigrant issue as we head south to greener pastures ...

So you've joined the "Blame America First" crowd and given up.

lukster · « **Reply #159 on:** January 15, 2007, 09:40:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by oboe
So you've joined the "Blame America First" crowd and given up.

Weak spin there oboe, too much elbow.

I think you understand he is saying that without the will to succeed in Iraq we most certainly will fail.

Yeager · « **Reply #160 on:** January 15, 2007, 09:54:21 AM »

failure is guaranteed in Iraq. the american people voted for failure. Its called the 110th congress.

midnight Target · « **Reply #161 on:** January 15, 2007, 09:57:14 AM »

This is like saying any Joe off the street can successfully fly a plane with just the will to succeed.

I think it's pretty clear that a plan and a little training are needed. Quit blaming the people who are pointing out the lack of a decent strategy or implementation and start looking at the real culprit.

It sure sounds like some of you are accusing the American people of a lack of resolve in carrying out a bad idea, when a resolve in carrying out a bad idea is kinda like the definition of insanity. I don't think most of us are insane.

lazs2 · « **Reply #162 on:** January 15, 2007, 10:05:27 AM »

oboe... I can't think of the question but the interviewer definetly whined a few times and tried to lead the interview. Perhaps our different political orientation makes us see it differently.

NPR did redeem itself tho as I knew they would. After not getting the doom and gloom and hate for the US that they wanted from the people in power in iraq.... they went to old npr/socialist never fail standby.... they interviewed some arab professor...

He delivered... he told em that everything would be fine if we had not interfered and that no one wanted us and that no good was done.. he did stop a little short of saying that the sadman and shieks were the very best thing for the region but... not much short.

I have allways thought it odd that no iraqi politicians seem to be interviewed and asked what they want or how they think things are going...

The whole thing seems weird... like only westerners and hairsprayed anchorpeople have any opinion with the occassional retired general or military man here and there and way too many American politicians that couldn't find iraq on a map telling us what we should or, mostly, shouldn't do.

I can't listen to NPR without talking back... It is crap. If they interview a lefty they lead him and throw him softballs and don't bother to question (except retoricaly) even the strangest statements he makes... they are like straight men in a comedy routine. fawning and pandering to the worst the west has to offer.

listened to em talking to a democrat who is trying to kill the subsidies (tax breaks) for oil companies. the guy didn't say one truthful thing...not one. He never once mentioned that it would raise the price of gas and that it would create another big government agency that would cost us money and do nothing. Not once. He said that Amercicans had to drive 15 mpg cars because the automakers fight cafe standards... like we can't allready buy any car we want getting anywhere from 15 mpg (on the very lowest end) to 40 or more...

It is just so dishonest a radio station... it would not exist without the government propping it up. I don't mind that they are far left so much as them pretending to not be.

lazs

oboe · « **Reply #163 on:** January 15, 2007, 11:02:57 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
oboe... I can't think of the question but the interviewer definetly whined a few times and tried to lead the interview. Perhaps our different political orientation makes us see it differently.

NPR did redeem itself tho as I knew they would. After not getting the doom and gloom and hate for the US that they wanted from the people in power in iraq.... they went to old npr/socialist never fail standby.... they interviewed some arab professor...

He delivered... he told em that everything would be fine if we had not interfered and that no one wanted us and that no good was done.. he did stop a little short of saying that the sadman and shieks were the very best thing for the region but... not much short.

I have allways thought it odd that no iraqi politicians seem to be interviewed and asked what they want or how they think things are going...

The whole thing seems weird... like only westerners and hairsprayed anchorpeople have any opinion with the occassional retired general or military man here and there and way too many American politicians that couldn't find iraq on a map telling us what we should or, mostly, shouldn't do.

I can't listen to NPR without talking back... It is crap. If they interview a lefty they lead him and throw him softballs and don't bother to question (except retoricaly) even the strangest statements he makes... they are like straight men in a comedy routine. fawning and pandering to the worst the west has to offer.

listened to em talking to a democrat who is trying to kill the subsidies (tax breaks) for oil companies. the guy didn't say one truthful thing...not one. He never once mentioned that it would raise the price of gas and that it would create another big government agency that would cost us money and do nothing. Not once. He said that Amercicans had to drive 15 mpg cars because the automakers fight cafe standards... like we can't allready buy any car we want getting anywhere from 15 mpg (on the very lowest end) to 40 or more...

It is just so dishonest a radio station... it would not exist without the government propping it up. I don't mind that they are far left so much as them pretending to not be.

lazs

Well, that's why I posted a link to both the interview and transcript. I just didn't hear what you heard. (Which is interesting in light of Toad's and McLuhan's contention that the media is a strong force for shaping opinion - here you and I listened to the same exact story and came away with different impressions). To be blunt, I think your political fanaticism colored what you heard.

Regarding the Arab professor interviewed, many people would say that presenting interviewees with opposing viewpoints is an effort toward balanced journalism. Your explanation has a hint of paranoia to it.

Studies have shown that NPR listeners have a more accurate view of news events than the public at large. And this quote is from a study on Media Bias done by a UCLA professor:

Quote

Yet another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom relates to National Public Radio, often cited by conservatives as an egregious example of a liberal news outlet. But according to the UCLA-University of Missouri study, it ranked eighth most liberal of the 20 that the study examined.

"By our estimate, NPR hardly differs from the average mainstream news outlet," Groseclose said. "Its score is approximately equal to those of Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report and its score is slightly more conservative than The Washington Post's. If anything, government‑funded outlets in our sample have a slightly lower average ADA score (61), than the private outlets in our sample (62.8)."

My advice to you is to just stop listening, if it bothers you so much. Find a FOX news affiliate in your area. The news and views presented there should be more agreeable to you. Life is too short to get yourself upset about stuff like that.

lukster · « **Reply #164 on:** January 15, 2007, 11:43:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
This is like saying any Joe off the street can successfully fly a plane with just the will to succeed.

I think it's pretty clear that a plan and a little training are needed. Quit blaming the people who are pointing out the lack of a decent strategy or implementation and start looking at the real culprit.

It sure sounds like some of you are accusing the American people of a lack of resolve in carrying out a bad idea, when a resolve in carrying out a bad idea is kinda like the definition of insanity. I don't think most of us are insane.

The people who have decried our presence there from the beginning may get their wish for us to be out of there, damn the consequences. They will be, at least in part, responsible for our failure to institute democracy there much as they were in Vietnam.

Whether you want to name our attempt there "insane" or a "bad idea" is up to you but you cannot deny that those unwilling to stay the course will share the repsonsiblity and the consequences of our failure.