A New Way Forward In Iraq

[Hap]

Originally posted by lukster
They will be, at least in part, responsible for our failure to institute democracy there much as they were in Vietnam.

The goal of "instituing democracy" is a wrong headed goal for America.  So said Candidate Bush in his debates with Vice President Gore during their exchange on the topic of foreign policy and "nation building" specifically.  Which is straight out of the Republican foreign policy playbook.  One with which I agree.

If the response be "well, that's what America does" that's wrong.  And don't comapre WW2 with this "war."

If the respons be, "well, that's what America should do," well, that's really wrong.

Read Pat Buchanan's Where the Right Went Wrong.  I've never been an all out fan of Pat's politics, and some of his opinions I do not share with equivalent vigor.  However, he got so much right in that book, it's very much worth a read for those interested in world politics.

You can get it free from your library.  There are no pictures though.

Regards,

hap

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Hap


You can get it free from your library.  There are no pictures though.

Regards,

hap

shamus

[Auger]

The reasons for failure in Iraq are many, but the primary reason is the unmitigated incompetence of the current administration.  When Gen. Shinseki said he needed several hundred thousand troops, it wasn't just a wish.  He didn't need them to defeat the Iraqi army, but to maintain order and "win the peace."  But as with most things in this administration, anything worth doing is worth doing half-assed.

What would have taken 300.000 to 400,000 troops initially would likely require close to a million now.  The rifts between the three primary factions are so deep now that it will take decades to smooth over, either through understanding and diplomacy, or the last faction left standing wins.  The current situation is unfixable without putting a squad at every street corner and shooting anything that remotely looks like it is unfriendly.  That, or arm everyone and fall back to the borders to contain the blood bath.

[Yeager]

It sure sounds like some of you are accusing the American people of a lack of resolve
====
The majority of americans supported this thing when it started, the majority dont now that it has become complicated and challenging.

yeah....I feel very good calling that a lack of resolve.  

We deserve failure and the resulting insecurity that brings.  But its ok.  Because the next go round will cost +100,000 americans their lives, then we can get back on track and maybe, just maybe finnish this thing.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Hap
The goal of "instituing democracy" is a wrong headed goal for America.  So said Candidate Bush in his debates with Vice President Gore during their exchange on the topic of foreign policy and "nation building" specifically.  Which is straight out of the Republican foreign policy playbook.  One with which I agree.

If the response be "well, that's what America does" that's wrong.  And don't comapre WW2 with this "war."

If the respons be, "well, that's what America should do," well, that's really wrong.

Read Pat Buchanan's Where the Right Went Wrong.  I've never been an all out fan of Pat's politics, and some of his opinions I do not share with equivalent vigor.  However, he got so much right in that book, it's very much worth a read for those interested in world politics.

You can get it free from your library.  There are no pictures though.

Regards,

hap

I'll ignore the insult and simply ask why this war should not be compared to WWII? It does in fact bear many similarities including resistance at the outset by many Americans.

[VooWho]

I can still see like my post earlier. We are going to get invaded by someone, or people from within and in a 2 year war, we lose 2,000 troops, and the enemy loses 30,000 and the American people say lets give up.

To me these days America seems to be giving up. People give up in school, people give up good health just to do drugs over a long period of time just so they can feel good, people give up on dieting because they just can't say NO JUNK FOOD in there head. People now in America give up in every conflict America goes in. If we do invade Iran 90% well support it, and by 4 years 30% well support it. We first support a war, but then when we lose 200 troops, people think we are losing.

Americans didn't think we could win the Revolutionary War, but we did. Americans didn't think we win the war of 1812, but we did. Americans didn't think we win the Civil War, but we did. America didn't want to fight in WW1 and we did and every american was proud to kick Germanys butt. We didn't want to fight in WW2 and thought after Pearl Harbor we might not win this war due to the Depression, but we did. Then comes Korea, and the modern day politics. We kick Koreas butt, and push the communists back to China but then American politics said NO to MacArthur, that wasn't the plan and we can't do that and then the chinese push us back to where we started, and I don't think Korea was a popular war. (Not sure about that) Then Vietnam came and people supported it, but then the media came to age with 'Live' coverage, saying Americans were losing, and the people gave up hope and we came home after we had lost around 53,000 troops to like 1 million or more. Then comes the Gulf War. I don't think alot of people supported this war too, but we came out winning, and everyone supported it after that, saying we kick Iraqs butt. Now were here at the 2nd Gulf War and you know the rest. To many people give up hope in America, and if you expect to win a war and get your troops back ASAP, support the war. Its like a sport, you start cheering your team, they get pumped up and they kick @%$. If you don't cheer they end up losing or barley win. Nothing well change peoples minds now, but the next war we come to, we all need support our country threw the whole thing. Then we well be victorious.

[kamilyun]

Originally posted by VooWho
People now in America give up in every conflict America goes in. If we do invade Iran 90% well support it, and by 4 years 30% well support it. We first support a war, but then when we lose 200 troops, people think we are losing.

America didn't want to fight in WW1 and we did and every american was proud to kick Germanys butt. We didn't want to fight in WW2 and thought after Pearl Harbor we might not win this war due to the Depression, but we did. Then comes Korea, and the modern day politics. We kick Koreas butt, and push the communists back to China but then American politics said NO to MacArthur, that wasn't the plan and we can't do that and then the chinese push us back to where we started, and I don't think Korea was a popular war.

Then comes the Gulf War. I don't think alot of people supported this war too, but we came out winning, and everyone supported it after that, saying we kick Iraqs butt. Now were here at the 2nd Gulf War and you know the rest.

I was thinking about WW2 as well as American "war sentiment".  But I also think there is a question of leadership, politics and rationale that must be considered, too.

My question is this:  How much is our recent leadership responsible vs. how much is public sentiment at fault?

In 3.5 years in WW2 we went from being bombed, to near victory.  In Iraq 2, we have bumbled about against insurgents/terrorists/whatever with rifles and roadside bombs.

How has the most powerful, technologically advanced military not achieved total success in a single country conflict?  Bush and co have had a blank check for 3.5 years, and now 20,000 troops (and change of Sec. of Def) seem to be just a political move in response to the last election.

I think Bush has screwed the pooch on this one.  Our servicemen and women (and their families) have paid the ultimate price.  Many more Americans will pay the price in the future, no matter what the outcome.

As a side question:  Why did we give up in Iraq 1?  We should have gone all the way then...

[oboe]

I think Americans get tired of duplicity in their leaders.   Have you heard of the Pentagon Papers, or know why they are significant to the Vietnam era?

Its the same sort of thing with Iraq and the missing WMDs, the cherry-picked intel, the Downing Street Memo and the Project for the New American Century.   The press has an important role in exposing these deceptions, but when public support for the effort goes south, they get blamed.   I guess we just like to shoot the messenger.

I don't recall a lot of controversy regarding the Gulf War.  I recall pundits fears that it would turn into a Vietnam-like quagmire, but it didn't.  

Also to Laz - I'd like to apologize for using the words 'fanaticism' and 'paranoia' in my response to you above.   You didn't deserve that - your post to me was civil and I should've used less strong words to convey my meaning.  Sorry about that.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Yeager
It sure sounds like some of you are accusing the American people of a lack of resolve
====
The majority of americans supported this thing when it started, the majority dont now that it has become complicated and challenging.

yeah....I feel very good calling that a lack of resolve.  

We deserve failure and the resulting insecurity that brings.  But its ok.  Because the next go round will cost +100,000 americans their lives, then we can get back on track and maybe, just maybe finnish this thing.

You cut out the part of the sentence that entailed the entire point.



Heres another way of saying it:

There is a sliding door in your house. You keep walking into it. It hurts. You resolve to keep doing it till you get it right. It still hurts, but you feel good about your resolve. A friend hands you a key. You slap his hand away cause he doesn't agree with your plan to resolve to keep up the pain.

oh and BTW... it isn't a glass door.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by kamilyun
How has the most powerful, technologically advanced military not achieved total success in a single country conflict?

Because we can't fight it like any war before this one .. Otherwise we'd carpet bombed them in the shock n awe phase and never gotten to this point..

The only thing that will win it in Iraq is time. we do not have the patience nor the sacrifice it takes to win today's warfare. the terrorist will win, ie Iran will absorb Iraq. You guys cry about the debt you leave your grand kids with the deficit but you should think about the war you certainly guarantee them with your chicken sheet cut and run antics today..

[john9001]

Originally posted by kamilyun
I
How has the most powerful, technologically advanced military not achieved total success in a single country conflict?  

they did , twice, but as long as people like you keep saying the "war" is lost, the terrorists will keep blowing up cars.

right now the democratic congress is talking about "disengagement",(cut an run)

[kamilyun]

Originally posted by Eagler
Because we can't fight it like any war before this one .. Otherwise we'd carpet bombed them in the shock n awe phase and never gotten to this point..

The only thing that will win it in Iraq is time. we do not have the patience nor the sacrifice it takes to win today's warfare. the terrorist will win, ie Iran will absorb Iraq. You guys cry about the debt you leave your grand kids with the deficit but you should think about the war you certainly guarantee them with your chicken sheet cut and run antics today..

Me chicken sheet?!  When did this get personal?  I don't see your body "staying the course" in the sands of Iraq so as far as I'm concerned we are both just talking heads.  Take a chill pill, dude.

How many Sept 11th hijackers were from Iraq?

How many were from Saudi Arabia?

Why are we in Iraq fighting terrorists?

How many Muslim countries will we have to stay in for a long time to win the war on terror?

You are right in that this in not a conventional war.  It is a cultural war and has many more aspects than just invading a country to 1) change a regime, 2) find WMDs, 3) stop a civil war (or sectarian violence, whatever the PC term is today), 4) fighting terrorism.

I'm not "cut and run".  I'm all for whatever the military asks for.  Send a million troops if that will get the job done.  Bomb weapons factories in Iran to make a point.  Destroy convoys of shipments from Syria and Iran.  Freeze the assets of politicians in those countries.

[kamilyun]

Originally posted by john9001
they did , twice, but as long as people like you keep saying the "war" is lost, the terrorists will keep blowing up cars.

right now the democratic congress is talking about "disengagement",(cut an run)

Where in my post did I say the war is lost?

You seem to think there are only 2 sides to this issue.  "stay the course" and "cut and run".

I have stated that IMHO that the last 3.5 years of war/conflict in Iraq have been poorly planned and executed.  Maybe there is a measure of success that I am missing?

As for future strategies, 20,000 troops is a start.

In your perfect world, what should our strategy be? Not sarcasm.

Same for you Eagler...how long, how many troops, rules of engagement, anything else to get the job done...?

[Kurt]

Originally posted by midnight Target
This is like saying any Joe off the street can successfully fly a plane with just the will to succeed.

I think it's pretty clear that a plan and a little training are needed. Quit blaming the people who are pointing out the lack of a decent strategy or implementation and start looking at the real culprit.

It sure sounds like some of you are accusing the American people of a lack of resolve in carrying out a bad idea, when a resolve in carrying out a bad idea is kinda like the definition of insanity.  I don't think most of us are insane.

Midnight..

That was one of the best posts in this thread.

[Yeager]

Heres another way of saying it:

There is a sliding door in your house. You keep walking into it. It hurts. You resolve to keep doing it till you get it right. It still hurts, but you feel good about your resolve. A friend hands you a key. You slap his hand away cause he doesn't agree with your plan to resolve to keep up the pain.

oh and BTW... it isn't a glass door.
====
Midnight..

That was one of the lamest posts in this thread.