Tactics on merge SptV vs HurriIIC coe

[Black Jack]

Hello guys, I was discussing with Schatzi what would be the best move or tactic from a SpitV against a Hurri IIc. I'm talking about a COE merge where most of the time both planes will cross and go to a immelman. Numbers for numbers, the planes are very close so I would like to know what better pilots would do to in this situation. Schatzi mentionned that you would have to outfly the Hurri since the SpitV does not have a lot of advantage over the Hurri. So how would u do it? Thanks:aok

[SlapShot]

You didnt say how fast we are going.

Well ... I would make sure that I was not Co-E with the Hurri just prior to the merge. If both are merging above their cornering speed, whoever slows down the fastest and can get to their best cornering speed the first should have the upper hand.

Also, what I like to do at times is this ...

It seems that most who fly these planes, at the merge, love to go vertical and try to loop/turn over quicker than the other. Sometimes, I faint a vertical and turn it into a quick flat turn, watching them go vertical. Once they have come over the top, hopefully they are looking for you where you are not, at that point is when I zoom up and past them and snap turn over the top as they go down ... which brings me right on their 6.

[BaldEagl]

My typical merge in this instance would be to go between 40 and 60 degrees vertical, roll over, pull hard and loop back down along almost the same path adjusting course with my rudder to get a shot if I have one.

If he took a flat turn or dove on the merge he's probably mine.  

If he looped I would follow through the bottom of my move with a full loop with WEP on at least until I got to the top or i would "roll up" in a sort of barrel roll or rolling scissors type of move to regain an altitude advantage while viewing him out the top of my canopy.  At this point you have to make judgements as to E state, distance, angles, etc.

If I think I have the distance/angles I would try to move to a pure pursuit position or at least a lead pursuit either with or without WEP depending on what I need but most likely without.

If it looks like he has angles and distance but not E I might roll over and go into a spiraling climb, WEP on hoping to get him hanging on his prop.

If I'm not mistaken the Spit V is both slightly faster and slightly out-climbs a Hurri but the Hurri MAY hold a slight turn advantage.  As always, even though the differences are slight they are still exploitable.

The Spit V is also able to continuously loop (a trait shared by most Spitfires) where the Hurri has difficulty and will eventually have to dive or flat turn.

Also, once the fight digresses into a constant turn, while not always recommended, a quick half to full turn with flaps will often put a Spit V into a firing position.

These things are so hard to figure out when your sitting at a desk without actually being there doing it but I think I got down a common scenario.

[humble]

slapShot hit on the key. You need to have an alternative to the "expected". The two planes are close enough that the pilot will determine the outcome (which is often the case anyway). Recognizing that the hurricane driver will probably be a bit slow and going all angles the flat or chandelle opener has the advantage of securing the "under" and potentially suprising the other guy enough he'll lose views on you. Even if he keeps views he has to transition from an angles to an E fight. If he pulls over into you he's risking both a front quarter shot and an overshoot. If he goes high he's really guessing at your E state (and U might even actually have enough to climb up for a shot based on how aggresive his E bleed was on merge).

Creton is the best I've seen at this particular merge and trust me its difficult to counter even if you know its coming. If you've never tried it you'd be suprised just how effective a "non standard" opening can be in a duel.

[Mace2004]

For the most part Spits are Hurri Snacks unless they begin with a large e advantage and can work the vertical separation well but then any airplane with greater e has the advantage so this really isn't unique to spits.  

Most spits have no maneuvering advantages over the Hurri except, to various degrees, climb and top-end speed.  Top-end speed is only important when someone is disengaging so that really leaves us with climb.  (The Spit XVI does have a significant roll advantage that it can exploit but most only use it to avoid getting shot as they bug out. )

The only time I become concerned when fighting a V from a co-e perspective is if, after the first merge, instead of turning the spit starts a wings level climb.  He's using the only advantage he has and will win a climb race so in that case I'll head the opposite direction and climb as best I can.  If you don't bite the serpent's apple he'll get bored and will eventually start to turn.

Mace

[B@tfinkV]

play the hurricane from the negative side.


merge as slow as you can and revese right round, chances are hurri will either ho you 2nd pass or overshoot within 2 turns.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
play the hurricane from the negative side.


merge as slow as you can and revese right round, chances are hurri will either ho you 2nd pass or overshoot within 2 turns.

That's true, you can play against the Hurri's expectations.  99% of the time people go for highest speed so he's expecting to have the turn radius advantage; however, if the hurri recognizes you're slow at the first merge then you're dead meat.  If the Hurri goes vertical (most likely) he'll be looking at your angles as he's getting near the top.  If you've gotten your nose around on him and you're inside his turn he knows positively that you're slow so he'll simply roll out and, depending on the separation, either climb or do a level turn letting you climb to him and an easy split s onto your head. If, on the other hand, he doesn't play this smart he may accept a second merge.  If he does and doesn't go vertical again following the second merge he'll waste his e advantage and, as Batfink says he'll likely overshoot on the third merge.  What you want him to do is overshoot nose low so you've reversed his altitude advantage and you can use the spits excellent slow speed maneuverability to move immediately to his high six as he trys to get his nose back up.