Author Topic: Bf 109 video  (Read 4533 times)

Offline Xasthur

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Bf 109 video
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2007, 07:43:31 PM »
I have an issue of 'Flightpath' Magazine here which has a small article on the Buchon that is being discussed here.

In this article Mark Hanna is quoted as saying:

Quote
It's an absolute gem...flies like a dream!


Seeing as I just stumbled upon this article entirely due to chance after having read this thread, I thought I would post that here.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 09:19:53 PM »
Drediock, it was designed from the start to eventually have a gun firing through the hub. A few test versions had 7mm guns and a few test versions had MG/FF in the center, but no production units did. This is why the E-7 finally filled in the hole, because they realized no matter what they did they'd never get the hub gun working. This wasn't fixed until the F series, which was redesigned to better accomodate a hub gun.

Offline humble

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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 09:24:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
Tell that to many Luftwaffe pilots who racked up 3-digit kills from the West, East, and Africa.  The only reason why it is hard to land and take off a 109 is because of the narrow gear and you have a very small plane with a big engine (torque is the enemy)

And you forgot the Finnish pilots who flew Bf 109s.  These guys were able to land their Bf 109s at a short runway!


No one is arguing the impressive combat record the 109 ran up {especially from 1939 to 1942}.  That has little bearing on just how difficult the plane was to fly. The accident report sited above is remarkably similiar to many accounts regarding the planes tendency to drop its left wing on landing. Obviously Mark Hanna was an extremely skilled pilot used to handling difficult edge of envelope manuevers with ease. The landing aproach was highly complex....but just how different from a 1944 200hr pilot returning from his third combat sortie of the day at dusk to a field he'd only seen from the air for a few days. although accidents claimed the lives of many expertain the majority were pilots with significantly limited flying time.

The website you have linked has many interesting and I'm sure factually correct snippits. It is also however the creation of a very biased group and isnt really an even handed portrayal. It is in fact substancially twisted in many ways.  


This is the opening paragraph from Mark Hanna's article on flying the 109 in the Dec 1999 edition of Flight Journal....

The Bf 109 is, without a doubt, the most satisfying and challenging aircraft I 11ve ever flown. So how does it fly and how does it compare with other WW II fighters? To my eye, the aircraft looks dangerous, both to the enemy and to its own pilots. Its "difficult" reputation is well-known, and right from the outset, you are aware that it needs to be treated with a great deal of respect. When you talk to people about the 109, all you hear is how you are going to wrap it up on takeoff or landing!

Sadly prophetic that possibly the best pilot of this era lost sight of this reality for just a brief moment. As a general rule "internet publication" is only as good as the people who publish it. I tend to stay away from clearly biased information readily available for the cost of the bandwidth. It's not really hard to find the truth if you want to. The 109 was an outstanding aircraft that was very deadly in the hands of a seasoned pilot. It was however a very difficult plane to fly....this was and is a simple reality. Look no further then Mark Hanna's words and tragic end.

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Offline humble

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some related comments....
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 09:49:39 PM »
from eric Browns article....

The Spitfire had a similar, narrow-track landing gear, but it was not splayed out like that of the Bf 109, and the Spitfire didn't show any ground-looping propensities. In 1939, these problems caused damage to 255 Bf 109s (only 14 percent were damaged during training). Sixty-three percent of the damaged aircraft were Emils, and as a result, a tailwheel lock was fitted to later models.


Owing to the Bf 109's limited forward view and the tendency of its wing slats to snatch in and out near the stall, any flare to land that was held too long and made too high above the ground could result in a wing drop: in severe cases, this could end in a cartwheel when a wingtip dug into the ground. his comment is specific to night flying but mirrors other identical comments that generalized this to daytime flight as well...

Because of the frequency of the accidents, a tandem, two-seat, trainer version was eventually developed, and in mid-1945, I had the opportunity to fly this Bf 109G-12.

From the handling viewpoint, the Bf 109E had two pluses and four minuses. On the credit side, it had a steep angle of climb that made it difficult to follow, and it could also bunt into a dive without its direct-injection engine cutting out under the negative G, thus leaving a pursuing British fighter behind as its carburetor-fed engine faltered. On the downside, the 109 had poor harmony of control: no rudder trimmer, which meant it was easy to inadvertently pick up skid and ruin one's sighting aim; in tight turns, the slats snatched open, giving lateral twitching and again ruining the pilot's aim. Finally, when the speed was allowed to build up rapidly in a dive, the elevators became increasingly heavy until at 440mph, they became virtually immovable.

he landing approach was quite steep, but elevator felt very positive, which was just as well, for a substantial change of attitude was called for in the flare before touchdown. Even after ground contact, the lift did not spill rapidly, and on rough terrain, ballooning or bouncing were common. This is fairly consistant with Mark Hanna's comments....

The 109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow, it is one of the easiest to three point. It just feels right. The only problem is getting too slow. If this happens, you very quickly end up with a high sink rate and with absolutely no ability to check or flare to round out. It literally falls out of your hands!

Once down on three points, it tends to stay down, but be careful; the forward view has gone to hell, and you cannot allow any swing to develop. Initial detection is more difficult-- the aircraft being completely unpredictable-and can diverge in any direction. Sometimes the most immaculate three-pointer will turn into a potential disaster halfway through the landing roll

These are just snippets from both articles specific to the takeoff/landing characteristics of the plane. Both articles clearly show different overall opinions but are consistant in the reality that it is a plane that can easily "get away" from you with potentially devestating results...

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Offline DiabloTX

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Re: Bf 109 video
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 09:58:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
Featuring Oscar Boesch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1Nr91RqTIh0


Featuring Oscar Boesch hell, it has Bruce Dickinson in it!!

SCUH-REAMMMMM FOR ME HAMMERSMITH!!!!!

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Offline DREDIOCK

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Bf 109 video
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 10:21:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Drediock, it was designed from the start to eventually have a gun firing through the hub. A few test versions had 7mm guns and a few test versions had MG/FF in the center, but no production units did. This is why the E-7 finally filled in the hole, because they realized no matter what they did they'd never get the hub gun working. This wasn't fixed until the F series, which was redesigned to better accomodate a hub gun.


Ok but I dont remember them mentioning a particular model.
Without looking at it again I ony remember them saying "109"
Not which variant
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 10:28:38 PM »
Sure, but all the wartime footage (well, most of it) was 109Es, and the museum piece was a 109E, so you'd think they'd specify :P

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2007, 07:33:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Sure, but all the wartime footage (well, most of it) was 109Es, and the museum piece was a 109E, so you'd think they'd specify :P


C'mon man this is the discovery channel.
Like the History channel which doesnt know the difference between a P51B and a P51D

If they do they are probably counting on the fact that 99% of the general public doesnt know the difference either.
so they just use the coolest footage they can find that hasnt been used a billion times already to keep it new

;)
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Offline Sweet2th

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Bf 109 video
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2007, 08:30:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Another source erronously reporting the cannon was in the engine (and not mentioning the 2 very visible cannon barrels sticking out of the wings).

Cool to see all the war-time footage, though.



Sometimes people act as though they were there and forget they depend on the data collecting of others to make thier claims.




Offline Krusty

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Bf 109 video
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2007, 12:52:15 PM »
Are you saying we're wrong and some book is right? When that book is shown to be wrong by almost every major 109 source out there?

So, you're saying our K-4 should have MG151/20s under the cowling? That's a widely published myth as well. Never happened.

Please clarify that last post


EDIT: Your image says E-3, and the nose gun myth is for the E-3, but the image clearly shows an E-4. :aok

Offline mandingo

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Bf 109 video
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2007, 03:06:56 PM »
that 109 looks like ed russels 109e saw it fly in niagara falls couple summers ago what a bird when it starts the whole plane shakes it just shows you how much power the 109 had in its engine and how undermodeled the plane is in ah man i hope they fly it again this summer

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2007, 03:34:40 PM »
Dunno if its undermodeled or not

I seem to have been able to make a pretty decent living in the 109s
Mostly the F.
but I've had some fun with the E as well
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Offline Xjazz

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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2007, 03:51:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
The website you have linked has many interesting and I'm sure factually correct snippits. It is also however the creation of a very biased group and isnt really an even handed portrayal. It is in fact substancially twisted in many ways.


LOL! We surely take your objective, unbised and truthful words... :rofl

Good troll  :aok

Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2007, 08:09:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Are you saying we're wrong and some book is right? When that book is shown to be wrong by almost every major 109 source out there?

So, you're saying our K-4 should have MG151/20s under the cowling? That's a widely published myth as well. Never happened.

Please clarify that last post


EDIT: Your image says E-3, and the nose gun myth is for the E-3, but the image clearly shows an E-4. :aok



Prove that your right and i am wrong.That pic is out of a book by a respected publisher, and they derive thier facts from german documents.I have yet to see a book published by Krusty1, so we have to go with what there is and not speculation from the internet.

Keep in mind this is my opinion.

Offline humble

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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2007, 08:30:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xjazz
LOL! We surely take your objective, unbised and truthful words... :rofl

Good troll  :aok



Hmmm I proved every comment here....

I'll give you another tidbit about the 109. The luftwaffe campaigned hard to have the C-205 built under license to replace the 109. It dominated the plane in german combat trials (just like it does in AH). Obviously it was politically impossible.

I've long since quit worrying about what the local "experts" think. In the end they turn out to be just like viking....no correct facts and no willingness to explore the realities. His comments on Mark Hanna are about par for the course...

As for the 109....well when Gorring asked Galland what he needed to win the airwar....Galland gave him a simple answer "Spitfires"....sums it up for me:)

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