Author Topic: Bf 109 video  (Read 4531 times)

Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2007, 08:42:32 PM »
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Originally posted by humble


As for the 109....well when Gorring asked Galland what he needed to win the airwar....Galland gave him a simple answer "Spitfires"....sums it up for me:)



And when was that quote given to Goring?


The germans didn't believe in RADAR yet thier pilots were constantly boggled as to how the british were on top of them no matter what direction they came from.

Offline 1K3

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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2007, 10:48:08 PM »
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
And when was that quote given to Goring?


The germans didn't believe in RADAR yet thier pilots were constantly boggled as to how the british were on top of them no matter what direction they came from.



That was only during battle of britain.  Tables turned in 1942 when it was RAF's turn to attack northern france.  Spits Vs and hurricanes were massacred by Butcherbirds (Fw 190).  190s practically replaced the 109s on the western front.

Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2007, 10:52:00 PM »
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Originally posted by 1K3
That was only during battle of britain.  Tables turned in 1942 when it was RAF's turn to attack northern france.  Spits Vs and hurricanes were massacred by Butcherbirds (Fw 190).  190s practically replaced the 109s on the western front.






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And when was that quote given to Goring?

Offline humble

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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2007, 11:43:53 PM »
The 190(A-1) was actually encountered in 9/41 over france. The A-3 was the 1st  major production run and the A4 is widely considered the best of the "A" series.

The A3 entered service in spring 1942 with the spitIX 1st appearing in july of 1942. So the germans enjoyed a brief window of clear superiority.

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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2007, 11:06:11 AM »
Sweet2th, 1 book printing a commonly debunked phallacy does not a reliable source make. Also consider that when the book makes such a common error as saying an E-4 is an E-3, you might consider that they didn't bother putting much effort into their research.

Offline bongaroo

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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2007, 11:28:38 AM »
:rolleyes:

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Offline 1K3

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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2007, 04:17:07 PM »
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As for the 109....well when Gorring asked Galland what he needed to win the airwar....Galland gave him a simple answer "Spitfires"....sums it up for me


Quote
And when was that quote given to Goring


That was after the spectacular loss of luftwaffe bombers trying to attack england.  I don't remember the extact date but that was at the time when luftwaffe sent ~1,000 plus bombers and fighters.

Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2007, 07:42:30 PM »
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Originally posted by 1K3
That was after the spectacular loss of luftwaffe bombers trying to attack england.  I don't remember the extact date but that was at the time when luftwaffe sent ~1,000 plus bombers and fighters.



Yes when they approached from Norway and still had no clue as to the Britt's usage of Radar.

Offline Zwerg

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« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2007, 10:57:22 AM »
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Originally posted by humble
[...]
As for the 109....well when Gorring asked Galland what he needed to win the airwar....Galland gave him a simple answer "Spitfires"....sums it up for me:)


Problem with this anecdote is the missing context.

It was about "If you (Göring) want us fighters to fly close escort for our bombers, you should give us Spitfires."

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2007, 12:43:09 PM »
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Prove that your right and i am wrong.That pic is out of a book by a respected publisher, and they derive thier facts from german documents.I have yet to see a book published by Krusty1, so we have to go with what there is and not speculation from the internet.


 The problem is these books more often than not 'recycles' previously published data by another second hand source. In other words, people quote each other as an expert opinion without going into research by themselves.

 For example, like Krusty has fleetingly mentioned the "Bf109K-4 with MG151 15mm cannons in place of the MG131" myth is a very classic case, where the myth was first born out of erroneous research from Mr.Greene. Soon, all other books on WW2 planes start quoting Mr.Greene's material as a first hand source, and the error is propagated throughout entire volumes of publication for decades. Even nowadays, this myth is sometimes brought up by people who believe the "books are always true", which it is not.

 Now, up to the best of my knowledge, like Krusty said the Bf109 was intended to be installed with hub cannons from the very beginning, except numerous problems concerning vibrations and overheating kept the Luftwaffe from placing a 20mm hub cannon on the Bf109E series. It wasn't until an entire new weapon - the electric MG151/15 - came into light that the problem was finally solved.

 IIRC, very few Bf109E-3s actually mounted 20mm cannons at the hub. No Emil with a prop cannon ever served with the LW in actual squadron strength during the BoB. If there was an Emil that had a prop cannon installed, it is highly likely that it was an experimental testbed - which even more likely, is that the prop cannon would have been promptly removed after facing the notorious problems.

Offline Xjazz

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« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2007, 02:29:40 PM »
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Originally posted by humble
Hmmm I proved every comment here....

I've long since quit worrying about what the local "experts" think. In the end they turn out to be just like viking....no correct facts and no willingness to explore the realities. His comments on Mark Hanna are about par for the course...

As for the 109....well when Gorring asked Galland what he needed to win the airwar....Galland gave him a simple answer "Spitfires"....sums it up for me:)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#Combat_service_with_Finlan

You don't need toworrying anything, because in reality our pilots did very darn well with the Me109G2/6's in very hard conditions.

Hmmm,  maybe you are right and Me109 really sucked badly,  but then our pilots were absolutely The Best fighter pilots during the  ww2 and could manage any given plane in every condition vs over helming enemy.

BTW Lets don't forget our Ground Crew who did the field repair/maintenance under the sky in extreme hard conditions, like  -30-40C winter weather. Big to them.

Offline humble

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« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2007, 04:38:30 PM »
The 109 was easily the best fighter in the world in 1937. It remained competitive for the duration of the war. It was not however a dominant plane beyond 1942. The fins worked wonders with whatever they had available....why try and make this into something it's not?

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Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2007, 07:49:34 PM »
what you all fail to see is in black and white.The word " Optional " is in the description of the armament of the plane.Many LW pilots had thier own personal aircraft and had them set up to thier liking.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2007, 11:18:15 PM »
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what you all fail to see is in black and white.The word " Optional " is in the description of the armament of the plane.Many LW pilots had thier own personal aircraft and had them set up to thier liking.


 Which part of the sentence "No Emil with a prop cannon ever served with the LW in actual squadron strength during the BoB" do you not understand?

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2007, 04:17:05 PM »
The only Me-109s that were good turners are the ones in simulators and in the minds of modern admirers of Nazi weaponry.  Armchair "experts" who play aerial combat simulators and games look at one figure - wingloading.  If they're relatively intelligent armchair experts, they'll also consider powerloading.  However, the actual equations are quite complex.  There are four factors which must be equally considered, not two.  Lift, drag, thrust, and weight ... didn't anyone go to ground school?

Let's use the famous Me-109 versus P-38 argument.  The 109 fanatics invariably say, "There's no way a 15,000 pound ship is going to turn with a 7,500 pound ship."  But let's look at it a little closer.  The Me-109 and P-38 both could pull 1800-2000 horsepower.  I'll use 2000 horsepower for ease of calculations, though 1800 was a more common figure for both ships as neither usually were rated for 2000.  Now, the P-38 has two engines, so that's 4000 horsepower compared to 2000.  So we see here that the P-38 has twice the weight but also twice the power.  Using just these figures, the sustained turn rates should be similar but the Me-109 should have a somewhat smaller turning circle because there is less inertia to overcome.

However, that's just half the story - weight and thrust.  Now let's look at lift and drag.  The Me-109 was a rather draggy design, especially the ones the unretractable tailwheels and larger cowling guns.  The P-38, on the other hand, was so clean that it could get away from the pilot in a dive or split-S (this is aside from the early compressibilty).  As for lift, the P-38 here had the better lifting wing by far.  The P-38 had an 8:1 aspect ratio, whereas the Me-109 had a 6:1 aspect ratio.  The P-38 had a thicker chord, too, which makes for more lift.  Lastly, the P-38 had a superior taper ratio, being 3:1 as opposed to the Me-109's approximate 2:1.  Add up these factors and the P-38 and Me-109 are very close indeed.

But there's one more thing.  The P-38 had Fowler flaps.  NACA (now NASA) tests show Fowler flaps to give approximately 30% more lift than conventional flaps, while having no increase in drag.  With these flaps located nicely behind the twin Allisons, the P-38 enjoyed a considerable advantage over it's opponents.  So while the Me-109, due to its lower weight and higher drag, was better in the instantaneous turn, the P-38 would soon catch up and then surpass the 109 in sustained turning.  Me-109 aces advocated scissors when fighting 38s, noting that the P-38 was capable of "appreciably tighter turns" and "out-turned [the 109] with ease."  The scissors, however, favored the Me-109's superior low-speed roll and instantaneous turn.  The idea was to keep changing direction; the P-38 pilot could not follow for a short while, hampered as he was by his airplane's weight and inferior low-speed roll.