Use of ".target"

[HomeBoy]

I have these ongoing arguments ("friendly discussions") with my squadmates over convergence.  Most of the time I fly the D pony so I'll use it in my example here.

I think a lot of people don't realize (I didn't for the longest time) that convergence is a two dimensional setting.  Not only are you towing (converging) your wing guns in more when you reduce your convergence setting from say 650 to 300 but you are also dropping the angle of the gun barrels so that you get less trajectory at 300 than at 650.

My squadmates, who are much more expert with the 51D than I am, say that 300 is the optimal convergence so I have been using that for several months now.  A lot of guys use really short convergence settings 250, 200, etc.  because they embrace the "get in close and then get closer" philosophy.  Very valid.  For whatever reason, I never have felt comfortable with that.  I used to use 450 with the pony but with more recent versions of AH2, this does not seem to work as well as it used to so I am now a believer in 300.  One thing that is for sure though is you have to lead a lot more with 300 than with 450 to get hits because the trajectory is a good bit less.  I almost wish there was a seperate trajectory setting in addition to convergence but I guess things are complicated enough.  I would like to increase my trajectory a little more at 300 convergence so my guns would do more of the "leading."

Anyway, on to my point.   I have started playing with the ".target" command and I guess I'm missing something here.  I thought you would be able to see trajectory with it but it doesn't seem to work that way.  I can set my target out to 650 then place my pipper right on the bullseye and hit it right on the money.  No drop in trajectory at all.  Also, at that distance, I expected to see only a random hit or two because my convergence is at 300 but I'm getting what looks like solid hits.  It's like my guns are in "arcade mode" or something.  I even plowed through the arena settings searching for something like that but didn't find anything.  The .target isn't really doing much for me at this point.  Am I using it wrong some how?  Can anyone clue me in here?   I was hoping .target was going to settle these arguments about convergence and trajectory.

What would be great is if when you set your convergence from the hangar that it had you set up with a target so that you could fire and see the spread as well as the trajectory like in RL.  Maybe someday HT will add that feature.  That would be sweet!

Thanks for any input.
-hb

[Mace2004]

You're right about convergence working in the vertical but, for most aircraft, there probably isn't nearly as much adjustment possible as in the horizontal because of the shape of the wing.  The amount of vertical adjustment available doesn't really affect your lead at 300 as much as you'd think but it does make a big difference at longer ranges.  Convergence is really more about shot grouping at your desired shooting range so look at the size of the pattern at the various ranges.  With your convergence set to 300 yds and shooting at a 600 yd target you should see the beginnings of two distinct groups of hits.  At 300 you should see just one and well inside of 300 you'll start to see two groups again.

You can usually see a significant difference in bullet drop using the .target but you need to consider the gun.  The American .50 cal is a high velocity round and shoots relatively "flat" so it doesn't drop nearly as much at a given range as say a Japanese 20mm.  Try some of the other guns in the game and you'll see what I mean.

Your theory about "built-in lead" is very valid though and modern fighters usually have their internal guns mounted with a few degrees of "nose-up" angle relative to the airplane centerline.  For instance the F-14s had a three degree built in up angle.  On the other hand, some ground attack aircraft have their guns angled downward to help in straffing.

[hammer]

Homeboy,

The M2 .50 cal has a very flat trajectory. In tests I did back in AH 1 with .50 convergence set at 350, the bullets didn't drop out of the center ring until after d800 and is barely out of the ring at d1000. In comparison, though, the MG131 on the same page is down 2 rings at d 1000.

I also did a series of tests specifically of the P-51D with various convergence settings. Again, these are from AH1 and some things have changed, but they give you a general idea.

Regards,

Hammer

[Old Sport]

What would be great is if when you set your convergence from the hangar that it had you set up with a target so that you could fire and see the spread as well as the trajectory like in RL. Maybe someday HT will add that feature. That would be sweet!

Test Guns

Didn't generate an enthusiastic response lol.

[HomeBoy]

Originally posted by Old Sport
Test Guns

Didn't generate an enthusiastic response lol.

Well, that makes two of us I guess.

Course, at the time (Nov 06), the AH community was in the middle of the MA-split tantrum.  Not much of anything else was important at that time.  

[Condor]

I'll vote for it too.  

[Patches1]

Bullet Rise is modeled in AHII which means that at convergence your rounds are "falling" through the convergence, not "rising" through the convergence.

This means that if you are firing upon an opponent beyond your set convergence, you must fire higher, so your rounds drop upon him.

Conversley, if you fire at less than set convergence, you must fire lower, so your rounds rise upon him.

As for setting convergences with mixed guns, the use of the .target xxx command is very usefull.

Optimal convergence for any given aircraft is the convergence at which YOU
can see the shot develope, fly towards it, take the shot, get the kill and extend for energy. There is no set convergence that is optimal for any single aircraft in Aces High.

For example, in my squad, VMF-158, The Green Mountain Boys, our two best shooters have two VERY different convergences: one sets his at 250, and the other at 425. Both gents have very high K/D ratios and kill quickly.

Convergence isn't what gets you kills; how you fly gets you kills, or killed.
Convergence, or gunnery in general, only states who outflew whom.

Fly first...shoot second! No set convergence will ever do you any good if you don't have the shot to start with, nor can recognise it when the shot is upon you.

How do you recognise a shot? Do you remember playing the game of "Tag" as a young child? All of the "Older" kids outran you, confused you, came from all directions...until one day...you didn't play their way and you "tagged" one!

Good Luck!



Patches

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by Patches1
As for setting convergences with mixed guns, the use of the .target xxx command is very usefull.
 

Actually, shooting at the bullseye leaves out one very important aspect of gunnery.... your target is usually a moving one, not stationary!!

That means you not only have to take the different drop rates into account, but also the different TOF (time of flight) for each calibre!

Originally posted by me in a thread long ago

"Vertical" convergence is made up for in AH. If you fire at a steady (relative to your gun!) target, when the target is in convergence, the center of your pipper is where ALL - no matter which gun type - bullets hit (see article at NetAces).

The problem with cannon and MG is twofold:

- muzzle speed
- target is moving

You pull lead because of two reasons: your bullets drop with gravity and your target MOVES at a certain speed.

Imagine youre shooting with MG - bullets take 2 sec to travel to target (these numbers are entirely sprung from my warped phantasies and probably dont reflect reality). In those 2 secs, your target doing 200 mph moves roughly 200 yds in that time.

Now imagine your cannon rounds taking 3 secs to get to target.... this gives your same target time to move 300 yds in that time. You need to pull 100 yds more lead to make up for that.

Taking not only your targets movement and speed into account, but also your OWN (which might not be headed the same vector, thus increasing the relative speed between you and target even more) make things even more complicated.

Now, the further away the target is and the higher the speeds involved, the more different the amount of lead gets.

In other words: Youll actually need to have your cannon set HIGHER then the lower calibre MG (which doesnt have as much drop and a much shorter TOF).

[Patches1]

Thank you!

I was hoping for some discussion along this avenue!

One must understand the ballistics of the rounds fired from the aircraft one is flying and the .target command can help one understand the differences in the ballistics. How?

Different guns have different ballistic coefficients and thus, some heavier rounds fall faster (gravity at work here) than lighter rounds. I like to use the .target command to bring up the target so I can get all of my various guns to "fall" upon the same space in the target by manipulating the convergence of all of my guns. I may have cannons set 100 or more yards farther out than machine guns to accomplish this act.

As Schatzi says...moving targets do make a difference. However...I know that I have set my guns to converge at a specific convergence as dictated
by my specific gun package and because I know that, I fly in a manner to bring all of my guns to bear in a single moment...at or near the convergence I set for all guns to bear.


Schatz!