Author Topic: AH / Real life bombing  (Read 955 times)

Offline macleod01

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AH / Real life bombing
« on: January 20, 2007, 11:21:21 AM »
I was just wondering if there was ever a recorded incident of say a Lancaster dropping just a single 1000lb bomb, hitting the target, and repeating with his whole bomb load. I was wondering because it is possible to do this with a lancaster in AH, I have done it countless times. Been able to drop a single egg and take out a gun. I can deack the V bases inthis manner. However reading a book the other night, I read that only a tenth of the early bombs came within 5 MILES of the target! So i was just wondering if anybody has heard (Or if there are any veterans playing, if they had personally accomplished this) of dropping a single bomb and succesfully hitting the target. Not dropping all the bombload and hoping one hits, but just one single bomb. I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks
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Offline OOZ662

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2007, 11:25:41 AM »
I wouldn't know the answer, but keep in mind that unless we add full weather including full wind with air density changes over altitude (which we somewhat already have in terms of engine and lift quality) and force bombers to fly at at least 25,000 feet, you won't get a realistic bombing approach.

If a real-life B-17 were able to come in at 15k with absolutely no wind and hardly any clouds to speak of, he'd laser bomb too.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline cpxxx

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2007, 12:08:44 PM »
617 squadron as I recall dropped a few Tallboys on the tirpitz. But given the nature of the war the Lancs were never used tactically like that. They would be highly vulnerable to flak and fighters. Even the jabos took heavy losses even though they had speed and manoeuvreability.

Some guys in AH are very good with Lancs. I remember been killed every time I spawned a GV by a guy in a Lanc who would drop a single bomb on me each time.  Not bad on a moving target. He got his comeuppance eventually when a fighter happened by. Which no doubt would happen in real life too.

Offline Kermit de frog

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2007, 12:24:39 PM »
I remember reading that the lancasters carried more bombs than american bombers.  They also had less people onboard and less defensive weapons because they favored a bigger bomb load.

They would miss their targets because the RAF Bomber Command would bomb at night.  You couldn't bomb accurately at night back then.  That's why they went after big targets like whole cities.  Remember, the Germans bombed many cities over England so this was like payback for the RAF to get revenge on the Germans.

If anything above in inaccurate, please let me know.

I've dropped a single building in a town from 8k.  It was the last building up and someone let troops out from a C47 that landed just outside of the town.  I lined up quickly and dropped 1 bomb.  Direct hit!  Then just 1 second later, the first troop ran into the map room.
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Offline macleod01

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 12:28:27 PM »
ok ok ok, Lancaster was just an example. How about B 17's, B 24's that bombed during the day? Any word on them being able to, using Kermits example, hit a single building such as the Townhall with a single bomb, then move onto the next target?
seeds have been laid...but they arent trees we're growing. we're growing organic grenades!- 321BAR
I'd have a better chance in running into a Dodo Bird in the middle of rush hour, walking down the I-5 with two hookers in tow before I see a useful post from glock89- Ack-Ack

Offline hubsonfire

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 02:04:37 PM »
We have no wind, or any atmospheric conditions at all, to scatter the bombs, which is why we have laser accuracy.
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Offline Oleg

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 03:11:47 PM »
Also all bombs ideal and equal, no air drag or it use very basic formulas, you know your exact alt and speed w/o any inaccuracy and so on.

btw, real ww2 level bombers always (or almost always at least) drop all their bombs at once.
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Offline macleod01

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 03:13:40 PM »
Thats why I was wondering if it was ever heard of?
seeds have been laid...but they arent trees we're growing. we're growing organic grenades!- 321BAR
I'd have a better chance in running into a Dodo Bird in the middle of rush hour, walking down the I-5 with two hookers in tow before I see a useful post from glock89- Ack-Ack

Offline zarkov

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 03:14:20 PM »
RAF night bombing was prone to inaccuracy because of "creepback"...basically, one crew would "lose their nerve", drop their payload short and RTB, and other crews, seeing the fires set by that missed payload dump, would that as their point of reference...but then they would "creepback" as well, etc.  The bombers didn't fly in a massed formation but a spread out "bomber stream".

USAAF day bombing was prone to inaccuracy because not all the crews were adequately trained to use the Nordon bomb sight.  The Nordon bomb sight was also very accurate assuming certain conditions.  These conditions were rarely met in combat because the bombers had to fly contrary to "spec" in order to optimize crew longevity, i.e. had they flown to "spec", they would have bombed more accurately but they also would've been shot down in greater numbers.

The only way to reproduce the same sort of behavior and results found historically would be to provide each side with a sophisticated ground control radar that could detect massing bombers and vector fighters towards the bombers and intensify flak and reproduce atmospheric conditions (turbulence, cloud cover, etc.) that would all contribute towards increasing bomb dispersion and also introduce some sort of game rules to force people to attempt to survive their missions, something so onerous that people would rather dump their bomb payload and RTB rather than pressing on in the face of heavy opposition and/or incurred damage.  This would probably make the game less fun.

Offline Apeking

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 04:09:50 PM »
"people would rather dump their bomb payload and RTB"

It would be silly for the crews to fly all the way into Germany only to lose their nerve a few minutes from the target; I suspect the "creepback" was more a function of general, compounding inaccuracy than a loss of nerve.

I vaguely remembering reading - possibly in Cornelius Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" - that, during the assault on Arnhem, Halifax turret gunners would strafe ground targets after the bomber had released its glider. That's not quite the same as dropping 1,000lb bombs on individual ground targets, though.

From what I have read in "The Right of the Line" and elsewhere, anybody who wanted to use precious Lancasters in this way would have had to convince Arthur Harris that it was a wise use of resources, and he would have said no.

Offline Hornet33

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 05:23:38 PM »
I'll take Ki-67's up with 15 50kg bombs and climb out to 25K or so and go drop radars at 15 different bases on one run. Not all that hard to do if you set up your flight plan properly and get good calibrations prior to the drop.
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Offline AWwrgwy

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2007, 05:34:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Apeking
"people would rather dump their bomb payload and RTB"

It would be silly for the crews to fly all the way into Germany only to lose their nerve a few minutes from the target; I suspect the "creepback" was more a function of general, compounding inaccuracy than a loss of nerve.

 


You can dump your load and RTB asap or possibly get hit by that big flak concentration or the hoard of fighters and die....forever.  No re-spawn for another flight.

What would you do?

I've seen in a scenario where points are given for RTB's the strategy of just RTBing.



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Offline Benny Moore

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2007, 06:10:16 PM »
I have a clip on my computer of a civilian reporter who went up in one of the bombers on a combat mission.  Two of the four reporters who went on various bombers were killed.  The surviver whose narration I have mentioned that the crew flew over the target and dropped, then discovered that one of the bombs had not released.  The pilot asked, "Is it a big one or a small one?"  The crewman replied, "It's a small one," so the pilot said that it wasn't worth it.  He had been ready to turn around and make another perilous pass if it was a big one.

Offline zarkov

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2007, 07:13:25 PM »
Fear of death does funny things to people.

Compare a typical AH air battle with what happened historically.  The difference in tactics, outcomes, etc. are due to people flying until they die in AH while historically, people had a tendency to get upset when being shot at, let alone having bullets intersect the space their body was occupying.

Offline Stoney74

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AH / Real life bombing
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2007, 07:28:43 PM »
MacCleod,

A really good book that discusses the bomber war is "Tail End Charlies" and it discusses both the U.S. and British campaigns, with more emphasis on the RAF/Lancaster missions.

A couple of things:

By the end of the war, most Lanc missions carried incendiaries and the cookie.  The cookie was used to set off a massive explosion that presumably the incendiaries would complement by setting fires.  Lancs dropped individually, and typically did not drop (at least during the night missions) from such high altitudes as did the U.S.  But, they did drop their whole load simultaneously.  Since the entire effort was focussed on Harris's goals of destroying entire cities, these tactics were effective, as accuracy wasn't desired, or necessary.

For the U.S., the USAAF was convinced that a systematic approach to destroying industrial/economic targets would cause the German war machine to grind to a halt.  They thought that "precision" bombing was necessary to destroy individual factories, refineries, marshalling yards, etc. and the crews themselves believed they were not carpet bombing cities, but trying to hit individual targets.  The Norden was basically a computer that, when fed the correct data, could put bombs on target effectively.  In training in the States before they shipped out to England, crews trained on hitting point-type targets with the Norden, and were largely successful, although they were dropping from lower altitude, without flak, formation induced turbulence, etc.  Early missions along the coast of France attempted to duplicate these types of bombing missions, targeting things like individual sub pens.  Some crews were successful, but all in all these missions were largely ineffective.  Mounting losses from fighters demanded tighter and bigger formations for protection, and as the raids moved further east into Germany, Flak concentrations became brutal.  Eventually, an individual formation would all drop off the lead bomber in the formation, sometimes while not even carrying bombadiers.  They would actually just carry enlisted "picklers" who would hit the switch based off the lead.  Obviously if the lead bomber was off, the whole drop was off.  A successful mission was deemed to have at least 30% of the total drop within a large radius of the aim point.  Needless to say, many targets were struck repeatedly due to poor effects on target.  There were a few examples of U.S. bombers attacking tactical targets, most notably during Operation Cobra, where U.S. bombers were sent on missions to hit German troop concentrations to facilitate an Allied breakout from Normandy.  These attacks did considerable damage, but also killed a large number of Allied troops as a result of poor coordination.  After Cobra, these type of attacks were frowned upon by both ground and air commanders.  

It wasn't until the Vietnam War that "strategic" bombers were capable of decisively affecting point or tactical targets.  

So, short answer to your question is no, there was no appreciable use of strategic bombers attacking point/tactical targets during WWII.  The typical use of strat bombers in AH is largely unrealistic.