Author Topic: Can the MA be fixed..?  (Read 2472 times)

storch

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2007, 10:33:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Had 954 people online in arenas last night, even with 1 arena and the old 750 cap what do you all want to do with the other 200 people?

HiTech
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Offline bozon

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2007, 11:31:24 AM »
When are those times?! The MWA must be packed full!

Perhaps I should start getting up early in the morning to catch the US prime time.
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Offline Iron_Cross

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2007, 11:39:15 AM »
As far as I can see Hitech, has relieved a lot of stress on the arenas.  Sure there are still hoards, kamikazi toolsheders.  With the numbers in each arena down to the early days of AH1, they are minor anoyances, not "give up and cancle your acount out of frustration" anoyances.

Hitech could have split the arenas and made them all mini MAs, every plane avalable all the time.   He didn't, because some people wanted to fly the early or mid war planes.  How long would a Ju-87 have lasted in the old MA, or a Spit 1, or a P-47D-11, or Boston III?  Hitech has made these hangar queens shine in there own element.  

Hitech can't change human nature, everybody wants to play with the best toys and not get "spanked".  This is why the LW arenas are always near capacity, and the hoard reigns in every arena.  I will admit, that I was tired of only seeing La-7s, N1K2s, and P-51s.  I love the EW arena, I don't have to deal with the Uber rides.  I just have to deal with minor diffrences in performance, not vast diffrences in performance like in the old MA.

Strat is a diffrent story.  Strat, as it is now, is prety much useless.  Nobody, now, goes after strat targets, unless they want to pad their bomber score.  The strat system needs to be overhauled, beefed up a little, make it a little bit more prominent.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 12:24:56 PM by Iron_Cross »

storch

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2007, 12:02:28 PM »
^^^^^^

the switch was necessary and just in time.

Offline Yknurd

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2007, 12:20:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
When are those times?! The MWA must be packed full!

Perhaps I should start getting up early in the morning to catch the US prime time.


I didn't count the late war arenas but the early war had approximately 40 people when I logged in around 19:30 EST.  Usually I see it populated between 9 and the low twenties.
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Offline 4deck

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2007, 01:34:23 PM »
**Cough cough ahhmmm *** LARGE MAPS[/SIZE][/COLOR]
**cough **
Forgot who said this while trying to take a base, but the quote goes like this. "I cant help you with ack, Im not in attack mode" This is with only 2 ack up in the town while troops were there, waiting. The rest of the town was down.

Offline viper215

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2007, 02:02:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Had 954 people online in arenas last night, even with 1 arena and the old 750 cap what do you all want to do with the other 200 people?

HiTech


Around the fire last night someone said you were only running the 750 cap arena at 25%.....is this true?
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Offline hitech

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2007, 02:08:45 PM »
Not sure what you are asking viper215

Offline indy007

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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2007, 02:34:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Not sure what you are asking viper215


I think he means there's a possible software cap of 3000 players per arena.

Check other threads though Viper, iirc, HTC said the software was capped at 1000 without substantial modifications.

Offline meddog

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2007, 03:53:56 PM »
I do believe the problems lie in the community.  One of my major frustrations is when the Bish and Rooks only dedicate 10% or less of their fighting force to fighting each other while both sides allocate 90% of their forces attacking the knights leaving the knights struggling to fight a 2 front war while the other 2 counties for all practicle purposes only fight a 1 front war and it does't matter if the knights have the numbers or not.  In fact having the numbers makes it worse because of the eny restrictions.  I see this all the time because im on every single night and view the map to see who ios fighting who and why or why not.  More often than not, I can look at the map and see that nearly a base is flashing along the bish/rook front while nearly every knight base along the front is flashing like a Christmas tree.  Last night in the Blue arena was the first time in a while that the bish/rooks actualy engaged in a large scale battle for any lengthy period of time and when multiple knight bases came under heavy attack from the rooks, I could look along the bish/rook front to see a major reduction in fighting. On the other hand, it's sort of sorry that the only way the bish/rooks can take a base from the knights is for each country to dedicate 90% of its fighting force to take one knight base.  I know HT wont do this but if your just going to gang on the knights every night, than I would rather just have a 2 country war.  At least that way you  will get the eny restrictions and not us.
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Offline Yknurd

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2007, 03:55:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4deck
**Cough cough ahhmmm *** LARGE MAPS[/SIZE][/COLOR]
**cough **


I might be mistaken but I think HT said that they can only have 750 or so in one arena.  I'm taking it that it's a hardware issue.

You might have larger maps but what happens to the other 200+ people?
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Offline Lusche

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2007, 04:14:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yknurd
I might be mistaken but I think HT said that they can only have 750 or so in one arena.  I'm taking it that it's a hardware issue.

You might have larger maps but what happens to the other 200+ people?


Several arenas with a large map each :)
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Offline Kweassa

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2007, 04:19:48 PM »
Quote
As far as I can see Hitech, has relieved a lot of stress on the arenas. Sure there are still hoards, kamikazi toolsheders. With the numbers in each arena down to the early days of AH1, they are minor anoyances, not "give up and cancle your acount out of frustration" anoyances.


 That is true. I don't think anyone is blaming Hitech of doing nothing. However, what I'm trying to say is the "stop-gap" type of solutions seems to be causing more problems of its own. I'm not saying I can build a better game than HT or something. He's been doing this for  years and I'm sure every solution he comes up with will have some kind of effect.

 What I am questioning, however, is the validity of the current MA format. According to HT's comment on this thread, we now have almost 1000 people onling at peak times. This is nothing like what I've seen during AH1 years. I don't think just splitting the arenas up, adding a (questionable) perk modifier system, putting in uncapturable fields and etc.. is truly ever going to solve the perceived "MA problem". (If, you can agree that such a thing exists in the first place)

 
Quote
Hitech could have split the arenas and made them all mini MAs, every plane avalable all the time. He didn't, because some people wanted to fly the early or mid war planes. How long would a Ju-87 have lasted in the old MA, or a Spit 1, or a P-47D-11, or Boston III? Hitech has made these hangar queens shine in there own element.


 If the EW and MW is ever populated, that is. I've been logging on and off during some odd hours lately, and frankly I've never seen the EW or the MW get populated with more than 40~50 people at a time.

 In effect, Hitech DID split the arena into two MAs.


Quote
Hitech can't change human nature, everybody wants to play with the best toys and not get "spanked". This is why the LW arenas are always near capacity, and the hoard reigns in every arena. I will admit, that I was tired of only seeing La-7s, N1K2s, and P-51s. I love the EW arena, I don't have to deal with the Uber rides. I just have to deal with minor diffrences in performance, not vast diffrences in performance like in the old MA.


 Ofcourse he can't. He's not God of this world. He's not gonna change human nature.

 However, he's the God of AH world and he has the power to influence people by augmenting the "rules of the game" and how it is played out in the virtual skies. The horde needn't to be a horde. The overused planes can be tamed. Its just a matter of what kind of a different MA format is used. However, that is only as long as the AH God himself wills it to change. And sometimes, meager AH people like me tend to become unfaithful to God - since we don't see any real signs of change around. ;)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2007, 05:19:30 PM »
Quote
Strat is a diffrent story. Strat, as it is now, is prety much useless. Nobody, now, goes after strat targets, unless they want to pad their bomber score. The strat system needs to be overhauled, beefed up a little, make it a little bit more prominent.


 Personally, I think a three key concepts are urgently required in the MA;

 1) basic organization
 2) logistics and attrition
 3) economics




1. Basic Organization

 The concept of basic organization is about placing each of the country's pilots under some kind of controlled environment where some of their actions are limited by the "superiors" - which in this case, would be the system that handles the MA. It involves dividing certain proportions of each country's pilots into certain groups that are "assigned" to certain fronts.
 
 There are inherently two problems concerning the horde's effect on the MA.

a) hordes deteriorate the MA gameplay into mere display of sheer brute strength. Such important factors as individual pilot skill, high levels of intelligent cooperation, epic aerial battles for the control and superiority of local skies, and etc etc.. are totally lost under the horde. The single minded conquest machine actively seeks out to destroy the opposition by displaying brute strength that cannot be resisted by normal means. In a truly tactical sense, this is the best maneuver any army can take. However, the MA is not only a war but also a game.

 In the gaming sense, the horde kills "competition" itself. The process of the "contest of airpower" itself is cancelled out with hordes. The hordes exist to obliterate the opposition from its roots, and seeks to win territories without any kind of real fighting. The main drive behind the horde is this ruthless efficiency in taking enemy bases - since no one dares oppose such sheer numbers of attackers, the horde merely walks in, flattens town, capture, and then move on. Rinse and repeat. The whole "struggle" part of the game is missing.

 b) hordes avoid other hordes. The horde phenomenon wouldn't be a problem if the defenders form a horde of their own and actually go head on against the attacking horde. Then that would create a mega-furball. However, when the initial phases of aerial struggle are played out, the defending side is usually so much discouraged by the attacking horde that they abandon the entire front where the enemy horde is attacking. Instead, they flock to some place else where there is no imminent danger. They form a horde of their own in that spot, and start attacking places that are undefended.



 Now, the concept of 'basic organization' is meant to prevent the horde fundamentally. By placing people under certain groups(or "airforces") which the system assigns their position to, people will not able to just abandon entire fronts or flock to each other. This is a loose portrayal of military service where pilots are assigned to certain theaters and expected to serve there faithfully. This means as a Rook (for example), you can't just leave the Knit front and flock to the Bish front just because the Bish seems to be the underdogs and easy kills. Or, you can't just leave the Knit front and join the Bish front because the Knits seems to have better pilots in the area. If you are assigned to duty at a Knit front, you will be expected to perform a certain length of service there.

 Essentially, a basic organization of this kind makes sure that all of the fronts are populated and the range of activities an individual pilot can take is limited. This will destroy the heart of the horde itself. The numbers which a certain front can muster is always limited to the numbers of pilots serving in that certain front. Even if you see a certain Bish zone undefended and ripe for the picking, you can't call everyone from the Knit front to form an enormous horde and start marching into Bish lands unopposed. All you have is the pilots in that specific zone of activity who are assigned by the "High Command".

 If this concept takes place in the MA, unless a certain country is fundamentally underdogged (such as 50 Rooks, 50 Knits, but only 10 Bish) you will never, ever have to see a mindless horde again. That is the pros of this concept. However, the cons of this concept is that it takes away the freedom to move around wherever place the pilot wills. There could be inherent problems such as some people being stuck at fronts they don't want, or Squadrons being split apart and not being able to fly together.

 Therefore, it will need some kind of a "buffer" that allows players to "transfer" to places they want under certain given conditions. For instance, there can be a "order of transferance" type of system in which the server receives "transfer requests", and if another person placed at a different area wishes to be transferred to where I am, then I can be swapped 1:1 and be transfered to an area I want, and vice versa for the other guy.


(contd)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2007, 05:20:05 PM »
2. Logistics and Attrition

 Logistics and attrition is a concept targetting to improve the overall logic of MA strat. Normally, such a system is not very welcome to the players in the fact that the destruction of logistics and high attrition rates deals in the possibility of total nuetralization of a certain area. Also, it is not welcome to the developers in the fact that achieving a certain balance is a very difficult task. For instance, what happens if the supply of fuels and ammunition are cut off at a certain field? If the resupply rates are too fast then the system will not work. If it is too slow, then the results would be overly penalizing and people will not be able to up from the field for a long time. However, I belive that a certain compromising point can be reached by blending the current system with a mix of some logistics and attritional values.

 This concept aims to bring into consequence the misuse of equipment or supplies. What if a cetain side ups a huge, 30+ man mission that includes 20 jabos with ordnance and 10 buff formations consisting of 30 bombers with hundred thousands of pounds worth ordnance? It is good if their mission succeeds, but if a certain mission fails miserably by a group of smaller number of defenders, then the impact of failure should be felt one way or another. Otherwise, it is severely unrewarding for the smaller group of defenders showing such great effectiveness (a proof of their skill) against a superior numbers of enemies, when the failed attackers just simply up another 30 man mission with jabos again and again and again until they finally obliterate the field.

 The tricky part would be designing a system where "normal" levels of activity would rarely "drain" supplies enough to cause a shortage, but a certain degree of impact would be felt when supplies and planes are used up too fast in too high amounts with no real results.



3. Economics

 Economics is in part a concept that is derived from the Logistics/Attrition concept, that is applied at a larger scale. This concept aims to bring in a truly strategical aspect to the MA where consistent efforts to destroy the opponent's economy will impact the entire country on a global scale. In effect, this is what will give the bombers their role back. The logistics/attrition concept will make it highly undesirable to use bombers as low-level jabo planes - since these typical low-level attack runs by bombers have high casualty rates, and the losses of ordnance and bomber planes would mount to catastrophic scales.

 However, if we take that role away from the bombers, then we must give them another, and this involves a more refined system of strat where economic facilities are to be targetted and damaged REPEATEDLY on a REGULAR scale. The logistics/attrition concept deals in the usage of supplies and planes on an individual airfield level. The economic concept deals in the efficiency of the logistics/attrition system itself. Continual barrage of bombs on a ammunition factory, for example, will be detrimental of the output level of the country's ammunition production, and therefore will reduce the numbers of resupplied ammunition on an individual field.



 ..


 If the above three concepts can be realized in the MA, then it would mean that the MA will be going through a fundamental change. As mentioned in the other post the current MA format is IMO nothing but a supplementary "stage set" where the main "play" of aerial combat can be acted out. However, the introduction of the above three key concepts would mean that the strat and land-grab aspect of the MA would become a true 'wargame', instead of just a "side show". This means AH MA will not be just a combat flight sim game that has some strat aspect to it, but a full-scale wargame which simulates a WW2 style of war played out.

 Now, I can expect that there will be considerable resistances to such an idea. However, I think that the reality cannot be denied any longer. Aside from a handful of people who fly AH for the aerial combat alone, the rest of some one thousand gamers online definately view AH as a total war simulation, and not just an aerial combat simulation.

 Also, aside from the first concept of basic organization, people who enjoy the current MA have nothing to lose with the second and third concepts. Instead, a whole lot more is gained, since fights will be performed an a mor even level, and the buffs and porkers will be aiming to hit the more important strat facilities than just the airfields. Also, if such bombing attempts are made regular from the introduction of the second and third concepts, then it means a whole new aspect of the MA would surface. It will also strengthen the ground-war portion of the game, which the GV players will like.  All of this is merely concepts and ideas, but I think it could be an important basis for the "new MA", if HT ever envisions one.

 ...

 And then I saw a new MA and new strat, and every game pilot would be happy and content without facing the everyday frustrations and absurdities caused by aged and old strat systems of the old MA, which was never meant to work with such large numbers of people. And every pilot would praise and cry tears of joy of the new world HT created for them to enoy a whole new level of gameplay for thousands of years to come.