Author Topic: Can the MA be fixed..?  (Read 2462 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« on: January 26, 2007, 02:24:48 PM »
I've been thinking a lot about some of the recent changes with the MA. IMO, I think it is meaningful in the aspect that HTC listened to some of the complaints the gamers used to have, and took active measures to relieve some of the pressures mounting inside the community. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm getting the impression that that's just about it.


1. The "growing pains" of the MA

 Opinions may differ, but my basic take on the recent "MA problem" is based on the theory that the perceived problem resulted from the fact that a stagnant, under developed MA system that was originally suited for small numbers of people, had to accomodate for a community that has substantially grown easily double in size after the recent failures of AH's rival games like WB or AW. One likely proof that might justify such a view seems to be the recent split of the arenas. There have been speculations revolving around why such a split has occured in the first place, but to me it seems very likely that HTC themselves have reached the same conclusion as I have - the 'numbers problem'.

 When AH1 reached a stable phase in service, the MA numbers were typically around 200 people during peak US time zones. In other time zones, about 100 to 150 people were the max, with some 30 players for each warring country. Ofcourse, some of the serious complaints that can be referenced in the boards nowadays, weren't existent back then.

 IMO, this implies that the basic MA game platform is effectively "broken". When we were flying AH1, we didn't have any problems because the basic design of the entire MA was suited for those numbers of people. The amount of field defenses such as acks, the size of the airfield itself, the ordnance load required to bring down hangars and objects, the field distances, captire mechanics, etc etc.. the MA was designed, wether consciously or unconsciously, to serve the needs of the limited numbers of people we had in AH1.

 For instance, in the old AH1 before the "AW-gamer Exodus", the CVs required merely 4,000lbs load of bombs to be sunk.

 This is because in the old MA with about 200 people in the arena,  each of the three countries had about 70 people tops. This means roughly about 35 people in each of the two fronts. In a typical MA map like "NDIsles" or "Uterus", there are about 3~4 available fields that are directly adjacent to an enemy field that sees simultaneous action. This means when a "furball" brews, unless a very large furball draws in all of the players in that particular front to a single spot, there are typically only about 10 pilots fighting in a single spot.

 Now, Imagine a CV has entered the vicinity of your home field. The sea-faring attackers and the land-based defenders each have only about 10 people available. If the 10 CV planes start attacking the land-base, the defenders need  at least 7~8 pilots to up in fighters planes to fend off the attackers, which leaves only about 2~3 people to go after the CV. During those days the buffs didn't have the formation option, and single buffs were easily intercepted. This meant that the 2~3 available defenders that went after the CV, had to up multiple sorties to bring enough bombs to sink the CV.

 After the "Exodus", with the arena numbers increased greatly, the survivability of the CVs went way down. HTC had to double the amount of ordnance load required to sink a CV. IMO this is a very classic case concerning the "numbers problem" and how the MA is designed. In the case of the CV, or field acks and defenses, HTC could just double the required ordnance load or increase the numbers of the acks on a field.

 However, when it came to more difficult problems such as imbalance in numbers, or the commonly phrased "horde problem" - there was basically no real solution to it - unless the MA itself changes.

 People hate flying long distances. Therefore, MA field distances are kept only about 25 miles apart. When two sides meet in the middle, each of the planes have only a distance of 12 miles to cover to get to safety when they are exposed to danger. This wasn't a problem when each of the two countries had only about 10 people flying in a single sector. One could enter a chase and quickly manage shoot down a couple of planes, and there was enough room to really "fight".

 However, it is another commonly observed pattern in behavior in these types of game, that people flock to each other to create a numbers advantage and increase their chances of survival. Therefore, when the MA numbers grew, the amount of people jam-packed into a single sector grew along withit. Some measures were taken with the intention to spread the people apart - using larger sized maps was one such example, hoping people would spread apart to different places of the map - and It didn't work. The only thing the larger maps created was an 'escape' for the people, where they could simply avoid the incoming horde and migrate to elsewhere where no large-sized enemy threats were present.

 Now, add into this picture the advent of the super-planes, and we have what the MA is now. A 25x25 mile square full of planes everywhere, with everyone in super planes that can turn back home and reach relative safety of the home field within two minutes of 'extending'. Everybody flocks to a place where there are already too many people, and stays there. When one side gains numerical advantage, the other side just totally gives up the fight, and creates their own horde to attack empty, undefended corners of the earth.

 All of this, in my view, is essentially a numbers problem. The current format of the MA is thoroughly unfit to accomodate such numbers.
 


2. The Measures taken, and the failures

 Our basic MA platform is essentially unchanged since AH1. It is a simplified form of a 'land-grab' capture mechanism where players directly influence the process of capture, and thereby proceed in territorial conquest to win the 'war' that is very loosely (if at all) based on the historical WW2.

 When we look into the origins of AH, the developers themselves have clarified that they started a small company to make a flight sim game which featured some of the planes they liked, and create an environment where people may enjoy aerial battles.

 Personally, my opinion on this is that the whole "land-grab war" aspect, including base captures and ground vehicles, were merely a "sideshow attraction" to the game itself. A loosely simulated 'warring environment' that enabled and justified some of the real-life activities of WW2 aerial combat, such as ground attacks and bombings. Seriously, if AH was just another free-for-all type of game, then it wouldn't be so different from what other packaged simulation games had to offer. The diversity of aerial activities possible in the game, was a major factor that contributed to AH's success.

 However, despite it all AH's true origins lie in aerial combat simulation. I'm not too sure if HT or Pyro had intended it in the first place to create a serious "multi-aspect war simulation game" which is meant to simulate some of the most important military activities witnessed during WW2 - the entire air/sea/land aspect of the battle. Some developer interviews do state that many aspects currently included in the game format, was planned from the start, but even so I doubt they planned it as something more important than just 'another interesting ride'.

 For example, when you bring in a tank or a ground vehicle into the game, it is only a matter of time before people start asking for ground-level simulation as detailed as the aerial portion of the game. Bringing in a certain "ride" into the game implies that the entire aspect of the real-life conflict that involved the particular ride must be brought into the game as well, if such an "interesting ride" was to have some impact to the game, rather than be just another hangar queen. The same applies to the bombers - yet another controversial part of the game. People are asking for a system where the bombers have some meaning, where they serve as a means to effect the outcome of the war on a truly strategical scale, instead of being used as over-bloated suicidal makeshift-jabo planes with heavy bomb loads.

 My respectful, yet critical opinion, is that perhaps HTC may have problems with this part of the game. The overall 'design philosophy' of the MA, if it can be referred to in that manner, is basically what one may compare to an "Laissez-faire" in economics, or the "invisible hand" to the layman. Just leave everyone as they were, give them the freedom to do whatever they want, and the arena will find a natural balance by itself.

 Frankly, the MA is totally devoid of anything that might even remotely resemble the structure of the 'war machine'. It isn't surprising, as AH's origins lie elsewhere as per the explanation given above. However to many people it has become evident that the MA can no longer sustain an autonomous "invisible hand" to run everything - it simply doesn't work any more.

 Perhaps that's what HTC is thinking, too. In the past months and years we've actually witnessed a very surprising turn of events when HT finally entered the scene and started to bring in all sorts of "measures" to the MA, which seems to indicate the failure of the "invisible hand", is now at last acknowledged by the developers themselves.

(contd)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 02:25:21 PM »
For example, we've seen the advent of the perk limiter system. Highly anticipated, but ultmately a failure IMO. This measure was taken to penalize a country with numbers advantage in the types of planes they fly - except it met an incredible amount of resistance from some of the super-plane lovers. After such protests the measures were drastically weakened, upto the point where the perk limiter effectively became meaningless and is now only a mild annoyance at best. Only when a certain side has enough numbers advantage thorough enough to totally ovepower the opposition, does the perk limiter really kick in.

 The latest change was the highly controversial split of the arenas, which I supported at first, because it might give a chance for an arena that used substantially different types of planes according to their introduction dates. However, there were people who were quite worried about it as well, since most of these people also witnessed the failure of the AvA arena. In the end, like they have perceived the EW and the MW arena is almost meaningless now, with people flocking to just the two of the LW arenas available on the server.

 So, did the split of arenas worked?

 I think the answer is both "yes" and "no". Essentially, the split of the arenas loosely achieved a state that is similar to the early days of AH1. It basically tried to eradicate the "numbers problem" by splitting the arena people in half. The arena numbers are now essentially halved, and this does seem to have some effect in remedying some of the most serious problems the MA has seen. This, in a way, can be viewed as a success.

 However, more importantly, my opinion is that it is much more of a failure in the fact that it represents a failure on part of HTC to come up with a more fundamental solution. Instead of actually "solving" the problems of the MA, they split the arena in half merely relieved the pressure mounting on it. If the MA is like a tightly closed kettle of boiling watter, they merely drilled another hole on the top to let the steam out of it, instead of turning of the fire.



3. Solutions?

 Some of you may actually remember my opinion about these matters, but my basic stance was that "whatever change may occur, it must be done in a single MA"[/u]. This is still my stance on this matter.

 Basically, the split of the arenas means that HTC themselves admits that the current MA format is unsuited to let all of the 500 players to enjoy the game in a single arena. They've tried many things, but none of them really worked. Therefore, they split the numbers and relieved the pressure. That's about it. It works, but ultimately it is an hinderance IMO.

 So would there be any solutions to this problem?
 
 Frankly, IMO the only thing that can solve the present problem is a complete overhaul of the MA interface - everything, from top to bottom, left to right. There could be so many specific ideas concerning a total overhaul, so I won't go deeper in what specific changes might be needed. For one thing, the entire strat/capture system should be changed, not to mention a certain limited aspect of logistics and attrition. Ground-war aspect should be made very important, and capture by attacking individual airfields must be removed.

 I wish HTC would consider a fundamental change in this aspect of the MA, after the ToD is finished. If ToD sees light, I think the next big change should be devoted to restructuring the entire MA platform, one way or another, before introducing any more ToD "modules" to be used.

 
 

ps) sorry for another one of my long stupid posts.

Offline Max

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2007, 03:13:33 PM »
How cow...that's printable Bathroom reading. :D

Offline hitech

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Can the MA be fixed..?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2007, 03:13:59 PM »
1 question. And one statement.

We now commonly cross 820 people online, and we are continuing to grow at a rapid pace. How do you see 1000 ,2000,5000 people in 1 arena playing let alone the tech problems in doing that.

Since we have made the split arena, every piece of data has been better.

# of deletes per month has been down.
# of new accounts has been up
% of players converting from free accounts to paying is substantial up.
average number of hours player per person is up.

So the answer to your question did the arena split work, I can absolutly state
it has worked exceeding well.

Finally.
In all your long winded post, no where do you even begin to touch upon the real issue of community / peer pressure/ meeting new people.

So is the current system perfect. Nope nothing is , always looking for ways to do it better.

But you might as well forget about the idea of going back, because it isn't going to happen.

Offline bongaroo

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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2007, 03:14:28 PM »
::snore::
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Offline navajoboy

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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2007, 03:39:23 PM »
*yawn*
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Offline Hap

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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2007, 03:46:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
For one thing, the entire strat/capture system should be changed, not to mention a certain limited aspect of logistics and attrition. Ground-war aspect should be made very important, and capture by attacking individual airfields must be removed.

 I wish HTC would consider a fundamental change in this aspect of the MA, after the ToD is finished. If ToD sees light, I think the next big change should be devoted to restructuring the entire MA platform, one way or another, before introducing any more ToD "modules" to be used.

 
 

ps) sorry for another one of my long stupid posts.


Kweassa, I've never found your posts "stupid," and I enjoy reading what you have to say and mulling it over.

Can you clarify what you mean by "capture by attacking individual airfield must be removed," please.

Thanks,

hap

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 05:12:07 PM »
Originally, I was against the split into 2 LW, 1 MW, and 1 EW arenas.... I'm not exactly *for* them, as of yet, but I don't have access to the server data, so the absolute numbers hitech alluded to do have an impact in the number and types of arenas they can operate.

My complaints were due to the splitting up of squads members to different arenas..... which still happens when a server hits the server cap.  I also don't feel that a EW and LW arena attract enough players to have both running at the same time, just yet.  I like MW, but there is not enough action there to draw me to MW.  Most players still stick to the LW arenas for "der uber-rides", so that's were the action is.

Absolute numbers and missions.  With the arena split with usually smaller populations per arena, and influx of new players, I've definitely seen a decline in organized squad operations and posted missions on a semi-regular basis. (Think I've noticed a decline in participation in SEA events too lately....).

Hordes still exist.  One country doing very well or poorly leads to mass migrations among arenas or countries at times.  One country will have more population than other two combined..... and still push ahead despite ENY, as noted in the original post.


Strategic Side:  Yes, I can have fun with strategic side, if there seems to be a point to it.  Why my bomber score is still where it is now, but far lower than where it once was.  Running a buff mission seems less important most of the time.  Still do on occasion, but nearly as often as I used to.

The dearth of maps that has resulted in smaller arenas.  Not fun.  Gets old at times, miss some of the old maps.  Same maps can hang around forever, but we'll see how the change in capture percentages works.

The changes attempted in captures had some merit.  The blue rat-maze line not so much in practice, but in theory, having to take certain territory before moving on to other territory, with broad fronts, and no sneak-300-miles-behind-the-lines captures has good points.  The trouble is you need to translate that into more that one pair of contested bases per country front.  There needs to be able to run diversions, and feints, and some ability to flank positions for the strategy players of the game.   Think of how the WWII front lines actually moved forward and backward with flank attacks and "bulges".... but we could not capture territory on the east side of the Rhine before invading France.  

..... finding a way to translate those kinds of strategic fronts into "fresh"  new maps, existing maps, or resurrected (and modified, or cropped) old maps is the challenge here.  Of course, a map could also take the spirit of the "island-hopping" campaign to heart as well, with major nodes being taken as necessity, but small fields that can be bypassed, though risking an enemy position in your interior.

Personally, I'd prefer 1 large LW arena, with larger numbers, along long fronts, with maps that provide fun furballs, and TT areas, as well as providing  a means to keep the strategic players involved, and 1 small to mid sized arena that alternated between EW and MW.   But that's me.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 05:19:06 PM by tedrbr »

Offline RedTopp

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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2007, 06:04:40 PM »
From a squad standpoint, waiting to enter an arena to fly with them has been sometimes a pain, but I wait my turn and clean the house so the wife lets me fly more.
Seeing countries outnumbered consistently in the 2 different LWAs  kinda has been wearing as well, although I am not sure that aspect has changed much since it was one arena.
For all the things I have had issues getting used to, one thing that has been nice has been lack of lag and good fr. I am consistenly at fr of 75, and I rarely have a lag problem, even if I am in a fairly large furball. If I have any lag it is does not effect the game for me. I used to have substantial lag when there was just one arena sometimes.
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Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 07:07:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
1 question. And one statement.

We now commonly cross 820 people online, and we are continuing to grow at a rapid pace. How do you see 1000 ,2000,5000 people in 1 arena playing let alone the tech problems in doing that.


Of those 820...how many are in que awaiting to get into a particular arena?

Of those 820...how many are the loyal old timers awaiting things to finally shake out.

Of those 820...how many are starting to realize that what kept them interested is never going to return?

No real way of knowing those answers for sure is there?

Only time will tell.

The changes are very new in the grand scheme of things and I personally feel like this isn't over as of yet. I hope all goes well for you...but i think many of those that stood by HTC are growing weary kinda like how Americans are growing weary of our situation in Iraq.

Hopefully the support doesnt fade too much.

Quote
Originally posted by hitech

Since we have made the split arena, every piece of data has been better.

# of deletes per month has been down.
# of new accounts has been up
% of players converting from free accounts to paying is substantial up.
average number of hours player per person is up.

So the answer to your question did the arena split work, I can absolutly state
it has worked exceeding well.



All of the above is a direct result of the split?

Could some of it have to due with Marketing timing?

Could some of it have to do with Marketing platform?

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2007, 01:31:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RedTopp

Seeing countries outnumbered consistently in the 2 different LWAs  kinda has been wearing as well, although I am not sure that aspect has changed much since it was one arena. ...
....
 I used to have substantial lag when there was just one arena sometimes.


Typical situation in the War Arenas tonight.....
* 40 to 60 in the EW and MW arenas, so not much action there...
* Knits outnumbered in Orange and getting slapped hard, pushed up against the un-capturable bases in SE....and furballing there, and getting pushed in the SW by numbers.....
* Knits had the numbers in Blue and dealing with ENY issues...... and typically for Knit, most of the 140 odd pilots trying to commit virtual genocide against half as many (or less) Bish  who were down to a couple bases, while 100+/- Rooks, led by the AK's it seems, were rolling Knits up in the south.  

Yeah....getting wearing.....guess it's back to hoping Countries as well as Arenas looking for some balance, intelligent teamwork, and a decent fight.......

Offline Laurie

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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2007, 07:04:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
1 question. And one statement.

We now commonly cross 820 people online, and we are continuing to grow at a rapid pace. How do you see 1000 ,2000,5000 people in 1 arena playing let alone the tech problems in doing that.

Since we have made the split arena, every piece of data has been better.

# of deletes per month has been down.
# of new accounts has been up
% of players converting from free accounts to paying is substantial up.
average number of hours player per person is up.

So the answer to your question did the arena split work, I can absolutly state
it has worked exceeding well.

Finally.
In all your long winded post, no where do you even begin to touch upon the real issue of community / peer pressure/ meeting new people.

So is the current system perfect. Nope nothing is , always looking for ways to do it better.

But you might as well forget about the idea of going back, because it isn't going to happen.


arent numbers always up in the winter due to people being inside more, watching more tv, being on the PC more.....?

i will accept the split may have helped your bussiness, but i wouldn't say it's made my experience better, nor has it been the only factor in game expansion.
 here are some other factors which will/may have influenced your figures...

the more people you have playing, the more friends are told about the game, word of mouth advertising.

quite a bit more advertising on the hitory channel at the right times,

its the cooler half of the year=more people inside, more people seeing your advertising through the net and tv e.t.c.

the internet is becoming less 'scary' to younger and older people, so you have hundreds of thousands more potential customers than 5 years ago, it is the internet's 'golden age' at the moement.

a lot more younger people allowed accses to credit cards now, as money expenditure is a lot more casual than it used to be.

The 'gaming' mentality across human beings is spreading exceeeeedingly fast, (quite worrying if you look at it from some perspectives)

The split is still a bit of a novelty to some

a lot of users now know no different to four arenas, but it's the decreasing number of old-timers that would concern me, i would rather have a bunch of 15+ year olds playing than having to squelch voices every 10 seconds.

Numbers may be up,
but my gameplay quality is down,

Aces high is still the best out there, i would never deny this.

but its not AS good as it once was for me.

i would reccomend waiting a year before we make a conclusion on how well it MAY have worked.

give it a year till we all marvel and put our eggs in one basket..........
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 07:08:49 AM by Laurie »

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2007, 08:54:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Laurie
arent numbers always up in the winter due to people being inside more, watching more tv, being on the PC more.....?

i will accept the split may have helped your bussiness, but i wouldn't say it's made my experience better, nor has it been the only factor in game expansion.
 here are some other factors which will/may have influenced your figures...

the more people you have playing, the more friends are told about the game, word of mouth advertising.

quite a bit more advertising on the hitory channel at the right times,

its the cooler half of the year=more people inside, more people seeing your advertising through the net and tv e.t.c.

the internet is becoming less 'scary' to younger and older people, so you have hundreds of thousands more potential customers than 5 years ago, it is the internet's 'golden age' at the moement.

a lot more younger people allowed accses to credit cards now, as money expenditure is a lot more casual than it used to be.

The 'gaming' mentality across human beings is spreading exceeeeedingly fast, (quite worrying if you look at it from some perspectives)

The split is still a bit of a novelty to some

a lot of users now know no different to four arenas, but it's the decreasing number of old-timers that would concern me, i would rather have a bunch of 15+ year olds playing than having to squelch voices every 10 seconds.

Numbers may be up,
but my gameplay quality is down,

Aces high is still the best out there, i would never deny this.

but its not AS good as it once was for me.

i would reccomend waiting a year before we make a conclusion on how well it MAY have worked.

give it a year till we all marvel and put our eggs in one basket..........




Think this covered it.

Quote
Originally posted by hitech


But you might as well forget about the idea of going back, because it isn't going to happen.



Seriously, just let it go.


Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline Bruv119

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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2007, 09:14:25 AM »
Hulse,  The old MA was a mess.

Least now we can try and have a fair fight.  Have you ever heard the phrase quality over quantity.  

Who cares if we used to have 200 a side.  With huge masses of red in each grid.  No fun when the 10th guy to drop in on you manages to get the kill.  

Only thing that is slightly annoying is when the numbers get out of line in some instances the hording has been worse.  Due to the cap the country with the least amount of pilots do get hurt.  I usually swap to even them up at this point.  

Just seems some squads/country thinks its cool and clever to still up 30+ man missions just to capture one field.  When that use of force is applied to an extent of maybe outnumbering a whole country to take one airfield its pathetic.

What i'm trying to say is that gameplay for me has been greatly enhanced since the changes.
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Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2007, 09:42:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruv119
...Just seems some squads/country thinks its cool and clever to still up 30+ man missions just to capture one field.  When that use of force is applied to an extent of maybe outnumbering a whole country to take one airfield its pathetic....



Much like the swamping of TT the other night? ;)

Might want to add "unless we want TT back" as an addendum :D