Author Topic: New vs. Old History  (Read 803 times)

Offline Red Tail 444

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 11:20:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
So, in short: someone who digs up the past looking for "lessons for the present" isn't an historian, but a rhetor. If you're really interested in the past, you'd study it for it's own sake.
Likewise, a guy who takes a woman out to dinner only to get laid isn't a lover, but a player. Ain't nothing wrong with being a player.

So it ain't "Old History" and "New History", but rather "Rhetoric" and "History".


Well put.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 11:36:49 AM »
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Originally posted by Vudak
No kidding, eh?  I'm not disputing your assertion - but where'd you find that out?  Snopes or something?  Because I wonder how many other Churchill "quotes" are also false?


That "New History" is a ***** sometimes.

Offline 68Hawk

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 12:22:11 PM »
As a Historian, I've been reading through this whole thing trying to think of a good way to respond.  Then Dinger just said it perfectly.  Well put.  People who ignore history are not students of 'new history'.  I suppose the rhetor thing works for people who go digging through history with a mind to use it to their own ends, but not quite for those who just want to ignore history itself.

To those who would immediately scapegoat 'liberals' as ignoring history (which they do seem to do a lot of lately) I would point out several of the forgetful moments of the right:  Iraq(see also:  Vietnam)  Iran-Contra(See also:  Vietnam in the 1940s) Afghanistan(see also:  Soviet invasion of Afghanistan)  The Red Scare(see also: Hitler).  As a student of aviation history, I'm especially disappointed at Lynnette Cheney and the other rabid right wingers for what they drug the NASM through.  These are snippet examples of course, but the point is that history is not railroaded or forgotten by any one side.

And Hap, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

If more people were instructed in history and not just presented a series of banal facts as is the case in most 'history' classes in this country, Americans might actually have a decent sense of their own and the world's history.  I'm not holding my breath.
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 12:26:03 PM »
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err History thread turning into a political one, next time try using a different approach for comparisons...


History is political.  Don't ever think it isn't.


Game Set Match: McCarthyism.  Current historians / liberals will tell you about the horrible time we spent accusing people of communism.

Real history shows that those people were actually aiding and abetting communists.
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Offline Hap

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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 12:40:07 PM »
Dinger, you're talking about the motive to study history.  10 people 10 motives maybe.  Who knows.  Intentions and motives are slippery things, and many folks fib.

I stand by my statement that most of the best stuff has already been said.  And I'm not talking about recent finds and discoveries.

I don't think for a moment we should all keep our traps shut and not discuss things.  I love history.  Why?  Hard for me to put into words.

Academe has sold itself as the "answer guys."  Socrates asks, "why bother?"  Answer, "to make people better."  Old Soc says, "oh, you've got my ears.  Pray continue."  

You know the Dialogue better than I.

Regards,

hap

Offline Vudak

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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 01:12:32 PM »
68Hawk, I respect what you and Dinger said, but I have to disagree on the whole "Rhetoric" angle...

Also, by "Old/New" History, I mean the way history is presented in a classroom.  For many years, it was presented as, "This is the past.  Time flows like a river and history repeats, so if you're going to invade Russia, make sure you bring winter clothing."

Now, it seems to be presented as, "Isn't this interesting what happened?  Let's draw no lessons or conclusions that can relate to today from it, and read history merely because it's enjoyable."

Really then, what's the point for the average student to read it?  If we don't presume that it is wise to study the mistakes of the past, lest we repeat them, then students might as well  read fiction.  They'll get the same out of a study of hobbit gender roles as they would Ancient Egyptian ones.

Extreme example, I know...  But do you follow what I'm saying?

Please don't confuse me for someone who isn't interested in history - I'd actually like to join your ranks someday, Dinger - but I'm not ready to abandon the "Old" way of looking at history just yet.  I honestly - perhaps naievly - believe that valuable lessons for today can be learned from the past.  It's not that I go looking for them, either.  It's that I read history, and then something pops up today that feels like Deja Vu.

Anyway, I'm not asking a teacher to say, "THIS is the lesson from THAT experience..." But I'm also not very optimistic for our future if our teachers say, "Don't bother comparing anything from the past to today."

That's not how I was taught and I don't see how anyone who has studied history could think that way, but, evidently, one of my professors does.
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Offline Dinger

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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 02:04:41 PM »
In the classroom, it was not a "if you're gonna invade Russia, bring winter clothing" kinda thing.

And there's a reason why we discourage comparisons to "lessons for the present day": they muddy the discussion rather than clarify it, and the reason they muddy the discussion is they assume that history is a collection of facts about the past.

It isn't. History is made by producing arguments based on evidence from the past. We can't just assert something happened, we have to show that it did, and the data does not easily admit of a single, global understanding.
So, contrary to what Hap may think, there's plenty of good and exciting history to be done: as our understanding of the world changes, so does our history.

Bringing comparisons to the present in the classroom assumes history is static, that "we know what happened", so there's no point in investigating it. If you want to put it schematically, the difference is:

History:
Evidence --> Interpretation

Rhetoric:
Interpretation --> Position on Current Events

The moment you inject the present into an interpretation of the past, it raises all kinda of red flags: is your argument based on a fair assessment of the evidence, or merely what you want to see?
Moreover, as your "winter clothes lesson" clearly demonstrates, seeking present comparisons leads to the single-factor fallacy. Very few major events in human history have a single cause that is necessary and sufficient. Did the Germans lose the war because they didn't bring trenchcoats to the Eastern Front? Or were there deeper logistic problems that might have also contributed?

Ultimately, what really gets us annoyed with the "past/present" comparison, is that so many people are content with what they think happened in the past, that they don't care to know the truth. For this reason, I've taught University history classes by starting out with the book Inventing the Flat Earth:

Basically, the story is the following: a surprising number of people believe that a main purpose behind Columbus' 1492 voyage was to prove that the Earth was spherical, not flat, as the Church insisted everyone believe. Even a Pulitzer-prize winning former Librarian of Congress wrote a popular history book where he argued that Columbus was a brave man to stand in the face of Church-inspired ignorance.

The whole story is a lie, a huge bit of horsecrap, that bears only a negative relation to what people believed at the time. By negative relation, I mean they knew the world was spherical, and in fact, everyone with any sort of education in the past 2500 years of the Western Tradition took for granted that the world was spherical. Only a few crackpots believed the world was flat, and none of them had any roles of significance in the Church hierarchy. Incidentally, to make a past/present comparison, there are tons more of those flat-earth crackpots around today than there ever were.

How did this outright lie make it into our popular culture, and even our history books (presumably the ones Hap is talking about, where all the good stuff has been said)?

Why, of course, because certain people wanted to use history as ammunition for current debates.
In the late Nineteenth-Century, in the wake of Darwin, in the US we had something that secular progressivists liked to call "the war between science and religion". They believed in a bunch of silly notions, chief among them were that scientific and moral progress go hand-in-hand, and that religion is naturally opposed to scientific progress. So, seeing the opposition of various religious groups to Darwin's theories, they hunted and found a fictional account (by Washington Irving) of Christopher Columbus' life with this myth in it, and used it as ammunition: "See, this is what happens when religion rules science". They put it in geography textbooks, and the idea took off, not because it had any relation to reality, but because it fit what people wanted to believe was the case.

So as a result of this, millions of people believe that educated medieval churchmen thought the world was flat, an outright lie.
And that is why we discourage comparisons to the modern world: focus on the evidence, and find the story.

If there is an old history, it would be: "Here are the facts about the past. Memorize them and repeat them on the test." And the new history would be: "Here's the evidence from the past that we have, here's how we interpret it, and here are our results. Now you try it."

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 02:11:50 PM »
Reading a book called "shattered swords" about the battle of midway...

Probly no other battle has been written about and rehashed but... this is a fresh book with a fresh perspective.  It is written from the records and point of view of the japs.

It is still filled with all the facts and the results come out the same but how they got their is told from a fresh viewpoint that has it's own lessons.

lazs

Offline Vudak

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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 02:22:25 PM »
<--- Tips hat to Dinger.  I think you may have converted me

:O
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2007, 02:53:29 PM »
<----- Tips hat to Vudak, honorably done sir.


Dinger r smart.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2007, 02:56:45 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
<----- Tips hat to Vudak, honorably done sir.


Dinger r smart.


You two nancies going to get a room?

:)

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You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2007, 03:02:45 PM »
Did Vudak tell?


curse him!

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2007, 03:44:51 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Did Vudak tell?


curse him!

Tell?  he didnt have to tell, we have video :cool:

Offline Hap

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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2007, 04:21:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
there's plenty of good and exciting history to be done


This is patently false.  History is not "done."  

Though there maybe and I hope there are plenty of good and exciting historians.

One may lie -- telling a falsehood knowingly -- intentional deception

One may tell the truth --

One may be mistaken --

Bah!  Some college education today is really a farrago of falsehoods.

Trying talking to a Cop about interpretations.  Or the IRS.  Or one's wife, mistress, the wife when she finds out about the mistress, etc.  Or the burglar, or the dentist.  Or the grocer.

It doesn't float in real life because it is the quintessence of vanity.

Nufsed,

hap

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2007, 05:27:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
And there's a reason why we discourage comparisons to "lessons for the present day": they muddy the discussion rather than clarify it, and the reason they muddy the discussion is they assume that history is a collection of facts about the past.

It isn't. History is made by producing arguments based on evidence from the past. We can't just assert something happened, we have to show that it did, and the data does not easily admit of a single, global understanding.


I like what you've said in this thread and I must say that I agree with most of it but I hesitate to say that it's always all or nothing.

Let's take the holocaust as an example.  There is probably little in recent history that arouses more passion, heated debate and intense study than the plight of the Jews, Gypsies, and others that were considered undesirable in Germany in the 30's and 40's.  Because of this, many in politics around the world have grabbed on to the holocaust and used their own version of it for their own gains, not unlike your example of Columbus in popular culture.

But, even through all the inaccuracies and lies, those of us in the western world have a pretty good timeline of how the Jews went from friend and neighbor to being rounded up and sent to their terrible fates during the Nazi regime.  If we saw a country today taking the same, small but inevitable steps to eradicate a percentage of the population, should we stand by and say "we can't be sure" or "we could be wrong about the Nazis" or "it could turn out differently this time" or should we learn from what we know of Germany in the last century and say "enough, we know where this is going and we’re not going to let it happen again?"
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.