Author Topic: New vs. Old History  (Read 801 times)

Offline 68Hawk

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2007, 05:52:20 PM »
Again I can only really second what Dinger said.

ChickenHawk, Dinger isn't saying that there aren't lessons to be learned from the past.  There are, both positive and negative.  We can sometimes study the past to hopefully repeat its good times.  What is important is that we not get too focused on the comparisons because no two points in history will be exactly alike.  Also, we don't really have as accurate of a picture of what's happening today than we do what happened 20 or 60 years ago.  Dinger's example about logistics in Russia is a good one.

History is not a collection of facts strung on a time line.  That's called a chronology.  History is about the interpretation of the facts that we know.  Sometimes minds and evidence can disagree.  There are many things about the classic narrative of what happened during WW2 that can be debated or even called a lie.  The debate, and the process of looking over old evidence in a new perspective is history.

An example for the thread:
When did the Cold War start?

Lets see how many answers we get.
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Offline Maverick

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2007, 06:50:38 PM »
Another aspect has to be brought into the equation when using history as a basis for comparison to the current world. That is human nature, or psychology if you will, as applied to operation of government and political entities.

Self interest has a very large part to play in politics and the impact of politics. Politics then directly impacts the making of history.
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Offline john9001

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2007, 07:04:04 PM »
1945

Offline LePaul

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2007, 07:43:28 PM »
Old History:  Hitler was a zealous madman and mass murderer

New History:  Hitler was just misunderstood.

Right.

:rolleyes:

Offline texasmom

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2007, 10:27:03 PM »
My interest in history is apparently much more narrow.  I look almost entirely at the persons instead of the events as the focal point of any piece of history.  

The people (not the events) in history who were amazing, or horrific, or steadfast, or wretched were the ones who determined how the events would be documented and remembered thereafter.

And why not take a lesson or two from the results of their actions?  The same 'ole human characteristics are alive & well in the folks who are around today...
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Offline Dinger

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2007, 09:15:15 AM »
Quote

Trying talking to a Cop about interpretations. Or the IRS. Or one's wife, mistress, the wife when she finds out about the mistress, etc. Or the burglar, or the dentist. Or the grocer.

It doesn't float in real life because it is the quintessence of vanity.


I didn't know vanity had a quintessence.

And guess what? The cop deals with interpretations. That's the cop's job: from a given set of data, the cop infers that you are likely breaking the law, and arrests your six. Then in court, the DA presents data, including the testimony of the cop, along with an interpretation to demonstrate that you were indeed breaking the law.

The IRS works similarly: they look at your tax return, and your supporting documentation, and they evaluate your interpretation of the tax code. If it doesn't match theirs, or they suspect it might not match, then they come by and you have a little talk, in which you are required to support your argument with more evidence.

I'll concede that with Wives and Mistresses, logic and sophistry are both equally useless.

A good burglar selects targets according to likelihood of success. If your house is surrounded by a chain-link fence, patrolled by guards with loose dogs running about, and your neighbor leaves for the night with the front door open, a sign on the lawn saying "be back tomorrow 10 AM", and priceless antiquities visible in the windows, a good burglar will likely interpret the evidence as pointing to your neighbor's house as the juicier target.
Dentists, like Medical Doctors, are trained to evaluate symptoms and make a diagnosis. Guess what that is? An interpretation based on evidence. This is what "second opinions" are for. The problem with many doctors, however, is the pressure to give "the right answer" without describing the process that led to it can make the process a little opaque. But that is how doctors work.

So why should historians be any different?

And in these examples lies the answer to the "holocaust" question. Just because we give interpretations doesn't mean we're free to give any interpretation we want. The rules of logic apply.

Holocaust deniers tend to use a series of logical fallacies that are general to conspiracy theorists, most notably A) possibility=probability and B) the cover up (anti-parsimony) C) suppressed evidence

A) The first fallacy runs along the lines of:
It is possible that the entire world, including my memories, was created yesterday.
Therefore it is probable that the world was created yesterday. In all likelihood, that is what happened.

B) The principle of parsimony (aka Ockham's Razor) runs along the lines of "Do not posit more beings in existence than necessary to explain the phenomena." Unknown to most people, Ockham adds "except in divine matters", since an omnipotent God can do whatever He likes, and besides, even if one arrives at a satisfactory proof of God's existence, the simplest explanation for God would be a unary God, not a Trinity.
  Ockham's Razor gets translated to read: "The simplest explanation is the most likely". A conspiracy theorist tries to get around this by taking the "God clause": an all-powerful conspiracy manufactures evidence to the contrary.

C) suppressed evidence is simply to ignore any evidence that does not fit the argument.

But back to the Holocaust for a minute: The "history" of Holocaust deniers fails as history because of the enormous logical problems they have. But here's another point to ponder: Why would an historian need to deny the Holocaust, when the evidence is so overwhelming that it occurred?

Now we're back in the realm of rhetoric.

One more, just for fun:
Quote

Old History: Hitler was a zealous madman and mass murderer

New History: Hitler was just misunderstood.

That Hitler was a mass murderer is beyond question. But "zealous madman"? Hitler behaved nothing like the boss monster in Wolfenstein 3D, you know. Hitler didn't need a kazillion hit points and chain guns where his arms used to be. He had thousands of willing supporters who did his mass murdering for him. People who were otherwise perfectly respectable citizens would go to work and do morally the most outrageous acts. And many, many people around the world admired Hitler in the 30s. Henry Ford actively and financially supported him.

"zealous madman" is just what we call him to avoid the unpleasant reality that, in given social circumstances, most people are capable and willing to do horrendous evil. And numerous other contemporary examples give witness to this. "Zealous madman" is a comfortable lie we tell ourselves before going to bed each night. He is misunderstood, and we misunderstand him willfully, because the truth is even more horrible.

Dinger
"There's a little Hitler in each and every one of us."

Offline Hap

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New vs. Old History
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2007, 10:23:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
And guess what? The cop deals with interpretations. That's the cop's job: from a given set of data, the cop infers that you are likely breaking the law, and arrests your six.


"Intrepret" and "Infer" signify different acts.  This is the crux.  The reason why "real life examples" or attempts to overlay past events on present events "muddy the conversation" rather than clarify it, attests to the inutility and falsity of the endeavor.

It's like the Emperor is undressed and mirrors are forbidden.

Dinger, our discussion is doomed to devolve.  It is not too different from religous discussions that go somewhat along the following lines:

Faith is right because . . . .

No it isn't, no faith is right because . . .

Well, that's faith too -- in faith not being right . . . .


That's pretty much won the day in Academe over the past, well 30 years might be pushing it.  Given another 15 to 30 years, hopefully folks will have come to their senses.  Though I'm not holding my breath.

All the Best,

hap