Author Topic: Two questions for HT  (Read 1690 times)

Offline Krusty

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Two questions for HT
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2007, 07:09:51 PM »
Why, just yesterday I was in a Yak9T, and with a single ping took the tail off a P51. Said p51 begins falling down butt-first (no tail) and some git comes screaming in from 5k above and behind me diving literally straight down at the con spraying with all his might. Luckily the P51 had presence of mind to shoot his guns (he was pointed up, you see) and said kill-stealer blew up instantly. Funny as hell, really.

So, IF that guy had survived, and IF we were using your system, even if he hit the P51 just a few times he'd have "done more damage" in his multiple hits than I did in 1, even though I blew the tail off the plane. Who gets the kill? The killstealer. Who gets boned? I do.

But folks do that a LOT in this game. I see more "Kill stealing" than I do out-and-out killing. I've ripped the wings off of enemy planes with a single ping and not got the kills, because the guy before me unloaded 20 rounds into that same wing. He did more damage.


If you're sick of getting assists, that's not a game problem. You need to fly without so many friendlies all shooting at the same con (if you see 6 green on 1 red don't bother! Wait for the next con!). Set your convergence and fire at that range until the target blows up. Or fly cannon-armed aircraft (kills are much easier in those).

Calling for the removal of "assists" doesn't help anything. All the "assist" does is say "Okay, we admit you did some damage to this guy, and even though you might have just shot him down you didn't get the official kill". Imagine if you were on a guy and he just disappeared, and you didn't get an assist message!

The whines would fill the entire forums!

Offline GooseAW

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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2007, 07:15:32 PM »
I think the current kill vs Assist system is as good as it can be.

How often do you actually engage an nme plane, alone and away from any other action, shoot him down and get only an assist. Not often I bet. I don't pay that close of attention but I can't think of many times that has happened to me.

However, the points raised above where in the furball, I do heavy damage to a plane I'm engaged with and a friendly swoops in and finishes his wing of with 1 ping, I should still get the kill don't you think? Or should your assistance, invited or not get the kill?

End result, one less enemy in the air. Neither way is perfect but I think the current system is the best under the circumstances.

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2007, 08:25:44 PM »
Here's an even worse scenario.  What if you blast that annoying Spitfire, and he's floating to earth in several pieces, and the FW-190 whose tail you just saved peppers the remains with lead.  Who made the kill?  Trust me, I've played lots of games where your suggested system was implemented, and kill stealing was such a problem that it was a good thing that friendly fire was permanently on.  Aces High II has the best solution.

Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2007, 08:36:45 PM »
kill vs assist thing is already perfect, changing anything about it would be bad, it's a very good and fair system.

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Offline Monster0

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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2007, 09:02:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty

If you're sick of getting assists, that's not a game problem. You need to fly without so many friendlies all shooting at the same con (if you see 6 green on 1 red don't bother! Wait for the next con!).  


Thats the reason why you receive assist messages.  Never have I received a assist message without friendless around.

Offline COndor06

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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 09:08:53 PM »
Ok  all points well taken. I have also flown a wounded bird home and received the (more than welcomed) you just killed *******. But on the other hand, haven't we all gripped about getting an assist. I hear it every time I play the game without exception. I guess its really 1/2 dozen of one to 6 of the other.

I wouldn't want to be engaged with another plane just to be robbed by another player on the kill either but how many times would that one perfect opportunity happen in comparison to every other advantage on the board. Eliminating assist isn't going to change the kill robber any more than getting assist.

I can tell you that the more skills I acquire in the game, the more assist I get. No mater what your are flying, guns or cannons, as you develop better tactics and skills, you will see more and more assist because you survive longer and shoot at more aircraft. We could take each example to the extreme but the fact remains that player X didn't complete the job and enemy player Y lands his kills. Why should I chase the pair of smoking bombers that are approaching my base?

I get a face full of repelling fire, a pilot wound and a beat up aircraft and if I survive and shoot down the bombers I get an assist. Not to sound mean but only in this game are you rewarded for getting a little better than half the job done. Let’s go to the other extreme. Enemy plane Y has been shot at and damaged by four other players.

He has out flown them and survived. The combined efforts of the four players totals 55 hits out of a possible 100. (just using as reference) You put the remaining 45 hits in the plane to get the assist not to mention that you had to chase him over 15 miles and out fly the guy.

If you don't get the job done the enemy plane survives to kill another plane and land his kills no matter how much damage the other guy created. The numbers would work out any way you slice it but (as in real combat) you get the credit for every plane you shoot down no mater what condition his craft is in. The only value in which you receive something (perks) is for a kill. Why would you be happy to land 4 assist.  Just my opinion.
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Offline mutant

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Two questions for HT
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2007, 09:19:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech

As to kill VS assist, he who puts the most lethality on the plane is awarded the kill.

HiTech [/B]


That may be true in air V air fights but is not so when it comes to GV's. Many times I have seen a spit (or some other plane) come along and strafe a panzer/tiger with a few riccocheting beebees only to be awarded the kill once I blow him up with a well placed AP round in the turret.

IMO if you wish to improve the kill/assist system, this is the place that most needs the attention.


LTARcnuk

Offline E25280

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Two questions for HT
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2007, 09:21:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mutant
That may be true in air V air fights but is not so when it comes to GV's. Many times I have seen a spit (or some other plane) come along and strafe a panzer/tiger with a few riccocheting beebees only to be awarded the kill once I blow him up with a well placed AP round in the turret.

IMO if you wish to improve the kill/assist system, this is the place that most needs the attention.


LTARcnuk
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Offline mtnman

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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2007, 11:27:35 PM »
I don't particularly care for the arena caps either, but honestly can't think of a more effective way to do it.  I liked it better with one MA, but understand why Hitech made the change.  I hate being "forced" to go to an arena with low #'s, especially if my pals are in the "full" arena.  

I for one seldom will actually log into the arena with low #'s.  I've found too many times that these seem to be full of people doing sneak attack base captures against undefended fields, often against a team that only has a few folks even logged on.  IMHO, they may as well be playing offline.  But- "different strokes for different folks", right?

My answer to the issue is to "quit", and relog into AH as many times as it takes to have a slot open up in the "full" arena.  Boring?  Yes.  Not any more boring than playing in a low-population arena against folken who are avoiding actual fights.  I grab a book, and click away until a slot opens up.

On the assist thing.  I truly hope it doesn't change.  

For one- I think the issue is vastly overstated.  Sure, I get the assist message here and there too, a few times a night.  Looking back at the last two months stats, I have a total of 1129 kills, vs 148 assists (just fighter and attack sorties).  By my math, 11.58% of the planes I make fall down turn out to be assists.  Oh well.   On the vast majority, I get a kill credit for them.  Could it be the .50 cals?  If you're getting too many assist's, check your convergence and gunnery.  You're likely pingin' your opponent, and letting him get away to to be killed by someone else.  Then you'll get the late, surprise "Assist" message instead of the "Kill" message.

Generally, I even have a good idea when I'm likely to get an assist.  I shoot the guy anyway to "help the team".  I get kills "stolen" too. That happens to me about once per month.  Not enough to upset me all that much.  Greed doesn't win you any friends.  I deal with the "kill-stealing" issue by calling planes out as I render them "flightless".  For example, after you clip the tail or wing off of a plane, simply say something like "Niki's dead" over range vox.  It tells others he's not a threat, and they will generally leave him alone.  It also implies "ownership" of a kill.  Most players aren't going to try to steal a kill from me if all the other players in range know I've already shot him down.  It also helps others by supplying SA information.  If you're chasing an enemy plane along with 5 other friendlies, you're a fool if you expect to get the kill credit more often than not.

The newbies who steal kills will generally stop if I politely explain over range vox why that is frowned upon in the game.  Even if they don't, the pilots who resort to kill stealing are mostly of a skill level that guarantees they will very shortly be in the tower, and too far away from me to steal very many.

"But folks do that a LOT in this game. I see more "Kill stealing" than I do out-and-out killing." -Krusty

That is quite the exageration, isn't it?  For that to even be possible there would have to be vastly more planes falling to the ground in pieces than "healthy" planes.  People would need to be ignoring the healthy planes to chase after the ones falling as wreckage!  Gotta get 'em before they hit the ground!  LOL, good one!

In order for you to get an assist, you have to finish off a plane that is already suffering with 51% or more lethal damage.  Judging by what my plane flies like after taking damage, that shouldn't earn you the kill.  Planes likely to give you an assist often are smoking, missing ailerons, flaps, elevators, rudders or wingtips.  Not exactly tough kills.  Some may appear healthy to you, but that doesn't mean they do to the pilot flying them!

Also, if I inflict the majority of the damage to a plane, and then land or die, I won't get the kill anyway.  The guy who should have gotten the assist will!  Oh well.  Lots of red guys out there to keep me occupied...

Let's leave the kill vs assist reward alone!

MtnMan
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Offline ghi

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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2007, 12:47:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Look at it this way ... (hypothetically)

If HT determines that to take off a wing on a P-51, the wing has to take a total damage of 100 damage points (100 is a something that I made up for this example).

Now I have shot that wing and put a total of 80 damage points on the wing.

You swoop down and in a lame AoM move try to steal my kill ;) and put a 20mm burst into the same wing.

Seeing that there is only 20 damage points left before the wing falls off, your small burst of 20mm surpasses 20 damage points and the wing separates.


:D




    i see P51Ds  flying well and faster than most of planes  without 1 wing or what looks like most of the wing missing,  Same with Me163s,

   I don't care about killz, Yes some guys are  straffing burning victims, but most of those doing it, are new players, let them be happy to land some killz

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2007, 01:53:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by COndor06
I can tell you that the more skills I acquire in the game, the more assist I get. No mater what your are flying, guns or cannons, as you develop better tactics and skills, you will see more and more assist because you survive longer and shoot at more aircraft.


This is nonsense.  I made several hundred kills today, and only got two assists.  As you aquire more skill, the fewer assists you will get because you will begin annihilating the target in a quarter of a second, unless you are flying aircraft with neither heavy machine guns nor cannon.  And, as Krusty said, be a man and when you see a bandit with two of your boys on him, leave him alone.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 01:55:29 AM by Benny Moore »

Offline killnu

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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2007, 06:13:07 AM »
slap, guess im looking at it from a practical standpoint....if fighting a guy like you suggested...you ping him up for "damage points" but do know visible damage to him....he reverses you(far fetched i know)...then i come swooping in to save you(once again, far fetched i know but makes for good story:D )....now, if I dont shoot, he can kill you, he is still in the fight, but I drop a 30mm in his cockpit and he explodes...assist.

Thats what irritates me, he was still in fight, was aggressive in fight and could of killed somebody with the "damage" you inflicted upon him(in my story)...It was the 30mm to the dome that took the plane out of action, not your "damage points".

and considering if taken a wing of with a single 30mm to  watch the plane fall to the earth with a noob friendly on him spraying away....assist for me.  


Ill give you this, since ive went to the 30mm type planes, I have far less assist and more kills than I use to have.  But those few like I described just irritate me and has always made me wonder how it really works.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2007, 08:39:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
slap, guess im looking at it from a practical standpoint....if fighting a guy like you suggested...you ping him up for "damage points" but do know visible damage to him....he reverses you(far fetched i know)...then i come swooping in to save you(once again, far fetched i know but makes for good story:D )....now, if I dont shoot, he can kill you, he is still in the fight, but I drop a 30mm in his cockpit and he explodes...assist.

Thats what irritates me, he was still in fight, was aggressive in fight and could of killed somebody with the "damage" you inflicted upon him(in my story)...It was the 30mm to the dome that took the plane out of action, not your "damage points".

and considering if taken a wing of with a single 30mm to  watch the plane fall to the earth with a noob friendly on him spraying away....assist for me.  


Ill give you this, since ive went to the 30mm type planes, I have far less assist and more kills than I use to have.  But those few like I described just irritate me and has always made me wonder how it really works.


I understand that standpoint, but those situation are like hen's teeth compared to where you have worked over an opponent and are on the verge of finishing the task and some goober decides that you need help.

I think the system that HT has is as good as it gets.
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2007, 09:04:41 AM »
What he said.

Bronk
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Offline Apeking

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« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2007, 09:13:21 AM »
"I would rather know that if I knock the aircraft, boat, tank, down that I get the kill."

Tell all of us why you value kills so much.

Which shops in the world will accept your kills as currency? Which people in the real world, outside these forums, are impressed by your kill score? Which of the people here in these forums are likely to be impressed by your kill score? And how many of those people are going to admit it?

How impressive would your kill statistics have to be, to impress the people here? I wager they would have to be extremely impressive. They would have to be so crushingly awesomely fantastic that a few assists would be, in comparison, as meaningless as the planet Mercury. And I wager that the kind of people likely to be impressed by the size of your statistics are, paradoxically, least likely to be impressed by raw numbers alone.

If the people here are not impressed, no-one else in the world will be impressed, because most people in the world do not even know that Aces High exists. Most computer game fans do not know that Aces High exists. If you consistently scored home runs in American Rounders you would be respected all over America. Even if you killed every player on Aces High a hundred times over, without ever being killed in return, you would not win a sponsorship deal with Pepsi.

Perhaps you feel great about kills and get angry when you are denied them. It is unfortunate that your thread currently sits right next to this one.