Author Topic: The German Spitfire  (Read 7294 times)

Offline Xargos

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2007, 02:15:45 PM »
Remember the US did not declare war on Germany, They declared war on us the day after Pearl Harbor.  Many in America thought the Nazi where doing a good job up tell that point.
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Offline Krusty

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2007, 02:26:10 PM »
[edited, don't want to disrupt the thread but Humble's got a hard-on for P-39s.]
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:11:11 PM by Krusty »

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2007, 02:36:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
SNIP


Krusty not again please.
For the love of cod stop.


Bronk
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2007, 03:08:31 PM »
Fine, but the man harps on the glories of the P-39 every chance he can!

I'll stop so as not to ruin this thread.

Offline Guppy35

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2007, 03:13:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Actually I believe we only sent you supplies and materials through the lend-lease program (the lend-lease program was "technically" unconstitutional but no one really cared at that time). I also remember that most pilots came to Britain during the BoB from Canada. Yanks could not come directly from the U.S.

Could be wrong, didn't look it up, just out of memory.


US pilots were recruited in the US, by the Brits with private American help, Charles Sweeney, and Clayton Knight being the bigger names involved..  There was a lot of 'looking the other way" while it went on with the knowledge of the US State Department.

To avoid conflict with US neutrality laws the 'recruits' were routed through Canada, where they enlisted, and then sent to England.
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Offline Shuffler

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« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2007, 03:24:28 PM »
S.A.P.P. this thread :aok
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Offline wooley

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2007, 03:53:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
the blitz was a cruel dishonourable tactic of a madman


And one that Bomber Command perfected under the guidance of Harris.

Offline humble

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lol....
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2007, 03:57:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
[edited, don't want to disrupt the thread but Humble's got a hard-on for P-39s.]




I have no particular fondness for the P-39. I simply have been impressed with the little bit I have learned about the plane. This was sparked by Bob Hoovers very positive comments about the plane. If you look at the BoB objectively two very specific elements come into play.

1) this was the 1st true infrastructure attack on a mass level.

2) it was the 1st real attempt by any nation to truely project air power at the strategic level.

This clearly showed the limitations on both sides with regard to fighter endurance. It also showed the british the difficulty in using rifle caliber munitions for bomber interception. It so happens that the only production ready fighter in the world that could have handled this combination happens to be the P-39 (or possibly D520).

Leave everything else alone but give the brits 4 squadrons of 39's (48 planes) available to interdict the germans over the french coast and see how far they would have gotten.

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Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2007, 04:15:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wooley
And one that Bomber Command perfected under the guidance of Harris.



truesay, but by then it was revenge, which i totally understand

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Offline Grendel

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Re: The German Spitfire
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2007, 04:43:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
The Germans were so close to have Spitfire-like planes in their service but the 109 was picked, for political reasons...
 


I don't know where that claim comes from, perhaps from the usual conspiracy crowd.

Facts are, though, quite different.

In the fighter competition the Heinkel 112 was the favourite.
But Bf 109 outperformed it completely. 109 was also much cheaper and easier to build. It had growth capacity.

While the next Heinkel fighter, He 100, was a better fighter than the 112, it still wasn't a match for the 109.  Also, He 100 had features that were quite simply unsuitable for a front line fighter.


The 112V1 started off the head-to-head contest when it arrived at Travemünde on the 8 February, 1936. The other three comeptitors had all arrived by the beginning of March. Right away the Fw 159 and Ar 80 proved to be lacking in performance, and plagued with problems. It was clear that the contest was really between the He 112 and the Bf 109.

At this point the 112 was still the favorite over the "unknown" 109, but opinions changed when the 109V2 arrived on the 21 March. All the competitor aircraft had been equipped with the RR Kestrel but this second 109 had the Jumo. From that point on it started to outperform the 112 in almost every way, and even the arrival of the Jumo engined 112V2 on the 15 April did little to address this imbalance.

As would be expected the 112 had better turn performance due to its larger wing, but the 109 was faster at all altitudes and had considerably better agility and aerobatic abilities. During spin tests on the 2 March, the 109V2 showed no problems while the 112V2 crashed. Repairs were made to the plane and it was returned in April, but it crashed again and was written off. The V1 was then returned to Heinkel on April 17 and fitted with the clipped wings.

Meanwhile news came in that Supermarine had recently received a contract for full scale production of the Spitfire, and this caused a wave of concern in the higher command of the Luftwaffe. Time now took on as much importance as any quality of the plane itself, and the RLM was ready to put any reasonable design into production.

That reasonable design was the Bf 109. On the 12 March the Commission wrote up the outcome of their meetings in a document called Bf 109 Priority Procurement. The plane that was considered a long shot for most of the program suddenly found itself leading the race. But there were some who still favored the Heinkel design, and as a result the RLM then sent out contracts for 15 "zero series" planes from both companies.

Testing continued until October, at which point some of the additional zero series planes had arrived. At the end of September there were four He 112s being tested, yet none was a clear match for the 109. This was likely the final nail in the 112's coffin, from October on the Bf 109 appears to have been selected as the winner of the contest.

Offline Anyone

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2007, 06:03:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the spitfire is a pretty, dainty thing, the product of a fertile mind but not really a weapon.  in reality both of the primary german fighters were more than a match for the spitfire.  the only reason why the people of the british isles are not speaking in their historical saxon tongue is because of the Americans who stepped in to save your bacon yet again.  prance all you want, the facts remain.

the fact that axis fighters are handicapped in this game is indicative of how truly deadly they were in reality.

if you argue about pilot training, especially towards the latter days of the war then I once again point you to the generous assistance provided by the United States.

carry on with your batfink delusions.


BOB had been won BEFORE the americans even entered the war..... so where do you get your ideas from?

Offline Major Biggles

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2007, 06:07:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the spitfire is a pretty, dainty thing, the product of a fertile mind but not really a weapon.  in reality both of the primary german fighters were more than a match for the spitfire.  the only reason why the people of the british isles are not speaking in their historical saxon tongue is because of the Americans who stepped in to save your bacon yet again.  prance all you want, the facts remain.

the fact that axis fighters are handicapped in this game is indicative of how truly deadly they were in reality.

if you argue about pilot training, especially towards the latter days of the war then I once again point you to the generous assistance provided by the United States.

carry on with your batfink delusions.



quiet you!, i can't believe you think anyone would bite that thing, the bait is WAY too stinky :p

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Offline wooley

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2007, 06:25:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
quiet you!, i can't believe you think anyone would bite that thing, the bait is WAY too stinky :p


Quote
Originally posted by Anyone
BOB had been won BEFORE the americans even entered the war..... so where do you get your ideas from?


You live and learn...:D

Offline wooley

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« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2007, 06:30:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
truesay, but by then it was revenge, which i totally understand


I'm not sure I agree. Hitler ordering the LW to switch to bombing London when a week away from destroying the RAF was revenge. The British bombing campaign was a carefully considered strategy - albeit one that might have been justified in the participants' consciences by the fact the Germans 'started it'.

For what its worth, I would have fully supported such a strategy in that situation.

Offline Major Biggles

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The German Spitfire
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2007, 06:36:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wooley
I'm not sure I agree. Hitler ordering the LW to switch to bombing London when a week away from destroying the RAF was revenge. The British bombing campaign was a carefully considered strategy - albeit one that might have been justified in the participants' consciences by the fact the Germans 'started it'.

For what its worth, I would have fully supported such a strategy in that situation.



ahh, the wonders of war, the wonder being that it never ends... :rolleyes:

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