Friendly Fire

[Dinger]

Well, if that were the case, they would have been id'd by the recon group comcing in, and the CAS flight that was taking over would have been on them. Or the artillery that was working over the scene would have adjusted with something nasty. Or any number of things. It's not like it was a "friendlies on the ground in contact with enemy" situation. I mean, I appreciate the desire to give these pilots every benefit of the doubt, and I'd agree there's no sense in busting them further for something they'll regret for the rest of their life, but they _did_ screw up.

[Fishu]

I wonder why many people faults the pilots. They noticed the orange markings and tried to verify that there are no friendlies in the area. However, the message was that there are no friendlies and they acted accordingly to the orders to engage. If someone was at fault there, it was the center ignoring the possibility of friendlies when inquired about it. They hardly gave a thought for the pilot's observation.

[B@tfinkV]

sad news. just like in kelly's heroes when the damn allied planes rocket thier jeeps in the forrest. most likely no one to blame but war, and war doest turn up for bail very often. who is responsible for war? all of man kind no matter if we fight in them or protest about them.

make 100% certain there was no foul play in a hush hush investigation and then let the poor pilots go and try to fit into normal society again.

i do think though, maybe next time it happens, and it will happen always in war, would be a good show of faith if the USA blew up some of her own troops a bit more.

as ever  my wish is may all affected by war find the grace to forgive humanity for our total bungle of evolution since we could throw rocks at each other.

wow guys, geuss what, 10,000 years on and we developing better ways to kill ourselves.

pretty soon, within maybe 100,000 years some of the other hot contenders for world powers are going to show how seriously they have been out evolving us as we get really good at war.


but geuss what!

it wont matter!


mainly because even the smartest dolphin or giant jungle insects cant beat a steady stream of bigger and better syntetic weapons made be such a vast colony of worker ants like us humans.

nope, will all be fine cos anything that screws with us we will wipe it off the planet if we dont first wipe ourselves off.




yay humans!

[Dinger]

Originally posted by Fishu
I wonder why many people faults the pilots. They noticed the orange markings and tried to verify that there are no friendlies in the area. However, the message was that there are no friendlies and they acted accordingly to the orders to engage. If someone was at fault there, it was the center ignoring the possibility of friendlies when inquired about it. They hardly gave a thought for the pilot's observation.

Hey Fishu,

I really shouldn't argue these points too much, but the principle is the same in aviation regardless of whether you're using aviation to kill things or not: the only single system that gives you a complete picture of what's going on is your central nervous system. One of the classic sources of pilot error lies in favoring any data source, to the out-of-hand exclusion of any conflicting sources.
Here, yeah, the were told "no friendlies in the area". But they had switched areas without informing the ANGLICO. It was clear that the ANGLICO was processing an entirely different mission, yet they gave him impartial information and didn't challenge his response against what they were seeing.

It's like if you punch in an ambiguous waypoint (say the letter H) into your autopilot, and it interprets it as being somewhere else in the hemisphere, and flies you 120 degrees off the expected track and into the side of a mountain. You can't blame the autopilot for resolving an ambiguity incorrectly. But the pilots are responsbile A) for not noticing the initial ambiguity (easy enough) and B) for not making gross error checks on the autopilot (this is the point of screwup).

These guys clearly knew something wasn't right, but pressed anyway, having to hurry their shots to do so. They got to the point where every single safety feature in the system was eroded or skipped. What they did next is punishment enough for anybody in their shoes.

[Fishu]

Ah, I hadn't realised they were in a different area

[Vulcan]

The Transcript... note the last comment. What really sucks is the US attempt to cover it up. Mistakes are made, but quietly sweeping it under rug is a bad thing to do to your coalition partners.

Popov36: Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?

Manila hotel: I understand that was north 800 metres.

Manila hotel: Popov, understand that was north 800 metres?

Popov35: Confirm, north 800 metres.Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.

Manila hotel: That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies.

Popov35: Copy. I see multiple revetted vehicles. Some look like flatbed trucks and others are green vehicles. Can't quite make out the type. Look like may be Zil157s (Russian made trucks used by Iraqi army).

.....

Popov 36: OK. Right underneath you. Right now, there's a canal that runs north/south. There's a small village, and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there.

Popov 36: They look like they have orange panels on though.

Popov35: He told me, he told me there's nobody north of here, no friendlies.

.....

Popov36: They've got something orange on top of them

Popov35: Popov for Manila 3, is Manila 34 in this area?

Manila Hotel: Say again?

Popov35: Manila hotel, is Manila 34 in this area?

Manila hotel: Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.

Popov35: OK, copy. Like I said, multiple revetted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?

Manila hotel: That's affirm

Popov35: OK

.....

Popov36: I want to get that first one before he gets into town then.

Popov35: Get him - get him.

.....

[Sound of gunfire]...

Lightning 34: Roger, Popov. Be advised that in the 3122 and 3222 group box you have friendly armour in the area. Yellow, small armoured tanks. Just be advised.

Popov35: Ahh ****.

Popv35: Got a - got a smoke.

Lightning 34: Hey, Popov34, abort your mission. You got a, looks we might have a blue on blue situation.

Popov35: ****. God, bless it.

.....

Manila 34: We are getting an initial brief that there was one killed and one wounded, over.

Popov 35: Copy. RTB (return to base)

I'm going to be sick.

.....


Popov35: Did you hear?

Popov36: Yeah, this sucks.

Popov35: We're in jail dude

.....

Popov35: They did say there were no friendlies.

Popov36:Yeah, I know that thing with the orange panels is going to screw us. They look like orange rockets on top.

[Dinger]

Popov35: Confirm, north 800 metres.Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.

-- That's the kicker. I listened to it again. The 800 m North is an afifirmative acknowledgment of the adjust fire. The "Confirm, there are no friendlies..." is a request for information about the situation in general -- but there's no way to know that unless you've got Popov36 talking about the 4-ship. The "flatbed trucks and green vehicles" is the target description for the artillery.

The artillery target consists of vehicles in revetments. Friendly vehicles moving in the open will not be described as in revets.

[soda72]

Originally posted by Vulcan
What really sucks is the US attempt to cover it up. Mistakes are made, but quietly sweeping it under rug is a bad thing to do to your coalition partners.

The tape was given to the MoD, the US did not want it released publicly.  I don't think that qualifies as a cover up... otherwise I don't believe the MoD would have received a copy...

The MoD said it was given a copy of the video by the US government for its own investigation into the incident

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6333853.stm

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by Vulcan
The Transcript... note the last comment. What really sucks is the US attempt to cover it up. Mistakes are made, but quietly sweeping it under rug is a bad thing to do to your coalition partners.

OK, I'll ask yet again since I covered this in a previous post in this thread.  WHERE DOES ANYONE SAY THIS WAS COVERED UP?  What we have here is a case of the press having done such an outstanding job of portraying everything as a "coverup" that people now believe it's the norm, which is, of course, BS.

I'll quote myself here:

Maybe I'm missing something here but where's the "coverup" or "lies"? I've seen nothing where the US denied it happened or claimed it wasn't a blue-on-blue engagement. I can see where some family member or friends of the family claim they were lied to, but they appear to be talking about the existance of the tape, not the incident itself. There's alot of posturing and pontificating by lawyers and family friends but nobody claims they were told it didn't happen. If someone has then please post.

Also, the US reported the facts of the A-10 incident in Oct 2003. The UK began it's military inquiry in Feb 2004. This UK MOD report came out in Feb 2006. Again, where's the coverup and lies?

Why is it everyone takes these ridiculous human feelings stories and hypes them so much?  A regretable war-time mistake gets turned into an international incident complete with imaginary cover-ups by the highest levels of the US government just because a tape was released confirming what both the US and UK governments already said beginning four years ago.

Also, do you notice there is absolutely no background provided in the British Press reports about the family members, the objective of the inquiry, the previously released information or that the tapes provide absolutely no new information?  This is what's known as "yellow" journalism.  By excluding this important information the press creates the impression that something more is going on, oh my gosh...a SCANDAL!  Are we now going to have an official inquiry complete with lawyers, mouthpieces, slander, accusations, politics, etc., for every single military member killed in war?  How much of a deal was made over the two UK tankers killed by other UK tankers?  How about the UK Marine killed by UK Commandos?  Jeeze...I don't recall these being blasted all around like this.