Author Topic: Friendly Fire  (Read 1280 times)

Offline Ball

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1827
Friendly Fire
« on: February 06, 2007, 01:58:01 AM »
Tapes have come out

Link to the tape: -

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007060133,00.html

It is sad that both the MOD and US refuse to use it in court.  I wonder how the newspaper got the tape?

Quote
Last night a senior US military source told The Sun: “This tape needs to get out. The pilots need to be brought to account.”

An MoD spokesman said: “There has never been any intention to deliberately deceive or mislead L/Cpl Hull’s family. We did inform them some classified material had been withheld.”

Offline cav58d

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3985
Friendly Fire
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 02:07:10 AM »
yea I just caught that on foxnews...It sucks...It just really really sucks.  Note to everyone else -  If you don't want to get into a really chitty mood, then dont ever watch that tape.
<S> Lyme

Sick Puppies II

412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline Ball

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1827
Friendly Fire
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 02:14:47 AM »
Yeah, can't help but feel sorry for the pilots... well, one of them anyway - the other only seems to care about his own *** getting hauled into jail.

Offline DiabloTX

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9592
Friendly Fire
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 02:16:51 AM »
Quote
Last night a senior US military source told The Sun: “This tape needs to get out. The pilots need to be brought to account.”


100% agree.
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline cav58d

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3985
Friendly Fire
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 02:25:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball
Yeah, can't help but feel sorry for the pilots... well, one of them anyway - the other only seems to care about his own *** getting hauled into jail.


I dont know...I feel terrible for both of them.  however, when the one said "is your tape still rolling" it did make me raise an eyebrow.

chitty situation all around.
<S> Lyme

Sick Puppies II

412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Friendly Fire
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 06:03:30 AM »
They made a mistake. In war mistakes costs lives. I can understand why some feel that this has to have consequences beyond military disciplinary action, but I don't agree.

Offline Ball

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1827
Friendly Fire
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 01:01:05 PM »

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
Friendly Fire
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 01:19:01 PM »
Having watched the tape, I have a hard time placing blame.  The A10 drivers asked more then once if there were friendlies in the area and were told no.

I would imagine they were patrolling a particular box on the map, under the guidance of an FAC.

It was only after the fact once they'd made their run that the call comes in that there are friendlies in the area.

Those pilots sounded shattered to me.

So who is at fault?  Where did the pilots break the rules?

Fog of war is what it is, tragically in this case.

To believe you can fight a war without friendly fire incidents even in this age, is a bit rediculous.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Friendly Fire
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 01:45:49 PM »
Quote
Last night a senior US military source told The Sun: “This tape needs to get out. The pilots need to be brought to account.”


About as simplistic and shallow as I'd expect from the media.

Well,, the pilots will be made the scapegoats for the incident.  And the pilots knew that at the time; when it goes bad, they will be sacrificed for the "greater good" --- that's just the military way when dealing with the public and politicians.   The breakdown was not solely with the pilots in this incident, IMHO.

Pilots don't operate on their own in a combat box.  All Blue Force are supposed to be kept track of by Controllers.  Obvious that location of friendlies were unknown while strike operations ongoing.  The Controller confirmed no friendlies and gave the pilots the green light to attack.

I also don't know what those pilot's ROE was at that time, or what that tactical situation was for the OA.  If Orange Panels were in common use by that time, and they were aware of it, then their attack while there was "something" orange on top of the vehicles, they CAN be faulted for carrying through with the attack.   This was Basra in March 2003.  I hit the ground in Baghdad at the end of 2003, and we got our orange panels around February, but we got everything late.  

Buck Fever?  Coming to the end of a patrol with nothing to show for it?  

It should also be clear that communications were about as screwed up as it normally is.

Friendly Fire happens.  If you take every step to avoid it at all costs, you end up still losing soldiers to indecision and indecisiveness and become combat ineffective.  It is to be avoid.  You take steps to avoid it.  But it still happens.  It's called combat.


But most people will just see the video, maybe an official PR press release, and the video of justifiably anguished family paraded forth by the media bottom feeders and lawyers.  They won't hear the testimonies of anyone else associated with this.  They won't get the details.  They will consider what is happening in the context of 2007, not March 2003.  But the pilots will be crucified in the public media machine for ratings and circulation more than anything else.


And if you haven't been in a combat environment: you're opinion don't count.  Sorry.... it just doesn't in my book.  No offense intended.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 01:50:26 PM by tedrbr »

Offline myelo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1590
Friendly Fire
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 01:52:29 PM »
This has been previously investigated by the US and UK in 2003-2004, and several contributing factors were identified

Details
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 01:55:13 PM by myelo »
myelo
Bastard coated bastard, with a creamy bastard filling

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Friendly Fire
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 02:18:18 PM »
The pilot has doubts, he seems to be not sure of the postion he is talking about and the position manila is talking about. What I don't understand is why he didn't mention the orange markings to manila.


In any case, it would have been over and done with by now if they had been truthful when it happened.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Friendly Fire
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 02:22:52 PM »
See Rule #5
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 02:27:56 PM by Skuzzy »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Friendly Fire
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 02:26:58 PM »
I understand why they try to cover things like this up.  For the most part, civilians will never be able to understand how accidents like this can happen.  

Until you are under fire, you really do not know how that changes your ability to comprehened everything happening around you.

It is a shame when accidents like this happen, to be sure.  While I said I can understand why they hide it when it happens, I do not neccessarily agree they should hide it.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3583
Friendly Fire
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 03:15:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I understand why they try to cover things like this up.  For the most part, civilians will never be able to understand how accidents like this can happen.  

 


Human nature, a defense mechanism.

Turn on a big press or a blast furnace when a co-worker was inside (both of which happened up here in the last three years) and you try to rationalize why it  was not totally your fault if you have any feelings.

I'm sure these guys went thru the same thing.

shamus
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline LePaul

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Friendly Fire
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 04:00:11 PM »
I agree with Guppy.  From what I heard and saw, they tried over and over again to verify the target.  They sound pretty devestated to me.  (Why the pilot can hold a level heading on the rtb also baffles me)

I also do not agree with someone in the Pentagon taking it upon themselves to leak classified data.  Regardless of their "good" intentions.