190 blackouts...

[Saxman]

Better yet, make them little tweeting birds.

[cav58d]

Originally posted by Saxman
Better yet, make them little tweeting birds.

nice! haha

[Bronk]

Just for chits and giggles.
I went off line and tried doing various types of rolls. All in an FW 190 A-5.

aileron only = 1 g steady
stick and rudder = 2-3 g  Probably due to the fact I cant perform them perfectly lvl.
aileron rudder = 3-4 g  Plane actually cork screws and not a true roll

None of these I could see as a disorientating to a trained combat pilot.

Now I did try some negative G roll type maneuvers .

Stick forward  type of stuff. All these produced red out FAST.
Once again the more of these types of moves were done . They began sooner and lasted longer .

All these moves are easily countered . Do a large barrel roll and reengage .
Doing these move the target WILL lose sight  of you. Giving you ample time to set up the next pass.

Bronk

[Debonair]

Originally posted by Old Sport
Factor in also that if they lose they die and there is further motivation to struggle beyond the normal limits of an aerobatic pilot. Adrenaline can do wonders. But there are stories of exhausted pilots having to be helped out of the cockpit after missions.

i once almost peed in my pants after landing in Spokane

[Kweassa]

How about POV buffet

If G increases faster than (eg) 1 g per sec then the POV head point moves to the extreme of that point..............roll left and the POV hits the right window........ roll right and the POV hits the left window...........

Upon impact stars appear before pilots eyes and these fade after 3 secs when the POV returns to normal......................

 I think this idea has some real merit!

 IMO it could be summarized as "increased amount/threshold of pilot head movement during change of course while extreme maenuvering". Currently, our AH pilot has a really sturdy, stiff neck... changing direction of roll left and right like mad, still doesn't amount up to the POV shaking more than just a few inches left and right. Observe the gun sight, and even with quite rough maneuvering the pilot's "gaze" is still mostly fixed on the gunsight.

 If sudden, abrupt, violent change in course during maneuvering amounts up to larger changes and shifts in the POV then it'd effect both the attacker and defender. Should be interesting to see how it works out.

 My guess is, from the defender's perspective, the 'stick stirring' will shake his head around very hard, and it'd might actually become very disorienting to keep exact track of your relative position in the airspace - and potentially dangerous if you are at deck.

 From the attacker's perspective, I think it'd become quite more difficult to change the plane's attitude violently and land snapshots at the same time. Like, a Spit16 is chasing a Fw190, the 190 rolls 180 degrees violently to the opposite direction. If the Spit16 pilot follows the sudden roll, his head would swivel to one side, throwing off his POV, and thus the gunsight won't be visible at that moment. So he won' t be able to land a really aimed shot at the 190, until after the rolling momentum is done and his POV is once again fixed at the gunsight.

 ...


ps) if we go even further, I think we could ask for the 'humanistic' POV to be implemented in AH as well.

 This POV can be seen in 1C's IL2 series when you are not flying at the "gunsight view" mode. The 'gunsight view' sort of 'mechanically' locks the pilots neck at the gunsight - feels exactly the same as AH POV. However, when it is turned off the pilots neck moves around in accordance to the attitude of your plane in flight. Violent maneuvering shifts the POV around a lot, gentle maneuvering shifts the POV very little. You can see this by looking at the gunsight and how it 'floats around' wildly when you maneuver hard, but moves around only subtly when you maneuver gentle.

 If for anything, this implementation would probably help people understand why hitting maneuvering planes were so hard in WW2.

[Kweassa]

Just for chits and giggles.
I went off line and tried doing various types of rolls. All in an FW 190 A-5.

aileron only = 1 g steady
stick and rudder = 2-3 g Probably due to the fact I cant perform them perfectly lvl.
aileron rudder = 3-4 g Plane actually cork screws and not a true roll

None of these I could see as a disorientating to a trained combat pilot.

 The question is what would have happened if the pilot did all of those moves in random order, alternating left to right, at a pace of less than 5 seconds for all three maneuvers, and kept doing those move at that rate for over 30 seconds straight in what AH gamers affectionately referr to as "stick stirring"?

[Bronk]

Also something else I noticed .
If you move sick left to right at a moderate pace guess what happens ?

The piper moves about in the sight glass. So I guess head movement is modeled.

The question is what would have happened if the pilot did all of those moves in random order, alternating left to right, at a pace of less than 5 seconds for all three maneuvers, and kept doing those move at that rate for over 30 seconds straight in what AH gamers affectionately referr to as "stick stirring"?

I'd guess 1 of 2 things would happen.

1. "don't move stick rapidly" deal
2. The pilot would lose so much air speed it would be basically helpless.  

These moves are IMHO opinion last ditch or when you catch the attacker at the last sec moves.

I also believe a lot of snap rolls appear as stick stir due to smoothing code.


Kweassa now a question for you.
Have you ever seen an aerobatics demonstration?
I have seen more violent moves pulled one after the other at air shows.


All one after the other.

Bronk

[Kweassa]

Have you ever seen an aerobatics demonstration?
I have seen more violent moves pulled one after the other at air shows.

 How many of those violent moves you saw were pulled off by a 10,000-pound warplane with 1,800hp worth of engine power while travelling at 300 miles per hour at 500ft altitude?

 Besides, stunt flights are choreographed. The pilots use the same basic patterns and routines over and over again. Fighter pilots are trained to respond to a variety of situations, but real combat is something entirely different from repetition of pre-arranged stunt routines.

[Bronk]

4g is 4g, it doesn't care if you're in the shuttle or an RV8.
Excessive G has the same effect on the human body.

Bronk

[Kweassa]

Try being punched in the belly as you know the punch is coming, and then being punched again totally unexpectedly.


 Besides, aside from the controversial 'fatigue', the 'disorientation' as Tilt mentioned in his suggestion isn't exactly something it one can train to ignore. A pilot may be trained to not succumb into the queasy effects of disorientation and recover quickly from it when it ends, but that doesn't mean he can keep his neck stiff and POV locked to the gunsight as his 190 rolls in alternations of left and right in 1 second intervals.

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by Bronk
4g is 4g, it doesn't care if you're in the shuttle or an RV8.
Excessive G has the same effect on the human body.

Bronk

1G is 1G but I guess the Kweassa meant the situation.  

Continuous high G maneuvers at low alt:
- well practiced aerobatic ROUTINE with extreme lightweight specialized sport plane front of the OooAaaaing people.

or

-eye-to-eye with enemy fighter, behind the lines in 10000lsb fighter plane, loaded with gas and ammunition while ground fire trackers are passing left and right.

The G's are much more 'heavier' in last scenario.

(edit)
BTW
The control forces in different situations is something what we don't need to worry.

[stephen]

stick stirring sux,, I mean sit still so I can hit you!!!!!!sheeesh

no,? dont we sound a little silly?, if your flying a 190 mustang is meat on the deck, use those 500 cannon rounds to stop his stirring perminatly, well for that sortie anyway.....

[Tilt]

I was trying to focus on the rate of change of g............

We know that pilots can tolerate various levels of g..........

However whilst G is the product of linear or radial acceleration it also has a rate of increase & decrease that can tests the pilots ability to compensate.

Exagerating to make a point............

We can be certain that in roll a pilot could compensate a g force of 4g.

But what if his manouvre was so violent as to incur a shift from 0 to 4g in half a second?

Would he so intuitively be able to resist it? I think not.

Now consider flip rolls we have a 4 g rolling manouvre in one direction and we reverse to a 4 g rolling manouvre in another............

G force may never have exceeded 4 g but infact have transitioned from a clock wise to anticlockwise shift in much less than a second.

I would suggest that the POV could move violently during such manouvres and possibly if such manouvres were sustained that the kneck muscles would not be able to sustain such reversals beyond a few seconds. Indeed of course in RL they would not be sustained....the weakoned pilot would instinctively temper his manouvres agianst his ability to avoid smashing his head around the cockpit.

I read above anecdotal summaries regarding the abilities of acrobatic pilots and experienced fighter pilots to with stand various complex high G manouvres.

Even conceding these points I would advise folk to watch the in cockpit video shots of pilots during the Red Bull air racing competitions......... here you will see high speed high g reversing manouvres executed by the best of pilots knowing exactly what they are about to do and how they must compensate. However equally you will see these pilots that are harnessed to a level greater than an average WWII pilot suffer violent head movement in some reversing manouvres whilst able to "hold steady" under sustained higher G manouvres.

I am equally reminded that F1 drivers wire their helmets to their shoulder pads to help resist the same effect (although this is a two dimensional problem in an F1 car)

Hence to summarise its not about G force alone its a consideration of the rate of change in G force when under violent manouvring

[Kweassa]

Thanks Tilt, you've nailed in on the proverbial head (!).

 What you've summarized was exactly the point I was trying to make, were it not for my limited brain/mouth coordination.

[Charge]

How can you create 4Gs in a roll?

Or is it a 4G barrel roll?

I don't think you can intentionally create 4G sideways acceleration in an aircraft -thus the race car example is not valid either.

-C+