RL "who was it?" question

[Treize69]

Has it ever been established who the Fw-190 pilot was who nearly got Dom Gentile in January, 1944 when he was caught low and out of ammo over France?

Heres the account taken from "1,000 Destroyed"-

One day the 4th's three squadrons were escorting the Big Friends on another mission in the Paris area. Gentile bagged one FW and was pumping away at a second. He roared earthward at about 650 m.p.h., guns flaming. The Hun dived straight into the ground with an orange spray flash and his slipstream almost sucked Gentile into the ground after him. Gentile put the stick in his belly to climb back up to the rest of his squadron.

He had concentrated on his shooting in the dive, serene in the belief that his wing man was screening his tail. As his plane groaned out of the powerful, leaden Thunderbolt dive, Gentile heard the muffled thump of FW 190 cannon fire and saw what is called "corruption" fly over his port wing. Gentile's earphones flapped with the urgent cry of another pilot:

"Break, Gentle, break! Break, Gentle, you damfool!" Gentle was Gentile's nickname.

Miles away over the Channel, Maj. Gen. Kepner was cruising about following the combat over his radio. To Gen. Kepner the shout sounded like:

"Break, General, you damfool!"

General Kepner couldn't imagine who could be flying in combat with enough rank to address him as damfool, but just the same, he told Gentile later, he reefed his Thunderbolt around and broke like mad to port.

Gentile went into a tight turn with the Hun. Not many pilots could turn in a Thunderbolt on the deck with an FW 190, but Gentile had the skill and was too frightened to worry about spinning out. The Hun had his No. 2 glued on his wing and he soon showed Gentile he was a tough adversary. Gentile went shuddering and shaking over the treetops with the two Germans. He was cold with fright, the same as he had been in his green RAF days when he escaped a German assailant with violent black-out turns and pull-outs, thus winning the bet that his body could stand more black-outs than the Germans.
On some reverse turns Gentile squirted what little ammunition he had left after downing the other two Jerries. Now he found himself without ammunition and with two determined, accomplished killers on his tail. In the head-on attacks the German discerned that the Thunderbolt's wings were not firing; this made him press the attack that much more resolutely. The Hun peppered Gentile with some 30° deflection shots. Gentile pulled away and flicked down.

One of the Germans had been lost in the maneuvering and Gentile found himself going around in circles over the trees, rawhided by the German. Gentile was defenseless without ammunition; his one chance of surviving the vendetta was to evade the German fire until his ammunition was also exhausted. The German kept pressing for the one brief opportunity of lining the Thunderbolt up in his sights. Gentile's hand got clammy on the throttle.

"Help! Help! I'm being clobbered!" Gentile screamed in near panic.

Somewhere above in the clouds the rest of his squadron was flying about. Until this day Gentile remembers the imperturbable drawl of Willard Millikan answering:

"Now, if you will tell me your call sign and approximate position we'll send help."

Gentile shot back, "I'm down here by a railroad track with a 190!"

But Millikan couldn't find Gentile. The duel_cannon vs. flying skill_went on down below. Characteristically, Gentile began talking to himself: " . . . Keep calm, Gentile . . . don't panic."

Gentile still managed to keep one jump ahead of the German, but his desperation mounted. The Hun was lathered and remorseless, having seen the American clobber the two 190 pilots, his acquaintances and perhaps his friends. He knew by now that the American with the "Donnie Boy" insignia was a superlative pilot; this was a chance to blast an American ace out of the sky without risk. He kept firing, but the American always climbed or banked just inside his line of fire.

Gentile felt like giving up; he was going to be shot down anyway; it would be better to get some altitude and bail out. But he had some last words:

"Horseback, Horseback! If I don't get back_tell 'em I got two 190s!"

The two fighters were flat-out on the deck, down by the railroad track, the German on the American's tail firing. The German began to close the gap. Gentile suddenly honked his ship up and stood it on his prop until it quivered and was ready to stall out.

For the first time Gentile had gotten above the Hun and could have swooped down on him for a kill had his ammunition not been exhausted.

Gentile had preserved himself. He had made the Hun fire all his ammunition without hitting him. The German suddenly peeled off and sulked home, his two FW comrades unavenged. Gentile bounced down the runway at Debden. He didn't bother to gun the motor before switching it off. He was spent and worn, his very fingers heavy with weariness. The intelligence officer jumped on the wing of his plane to interrogate him. Gentile didn't answer, just sitting in the cockpit rolling his eyes and panting.

Has that 190 pilot (or even his unit? I'm assuming either Jg26 or Jg2) been identified? And is there an account from the German pilots perspective? Sounds like one hell of a fight.

[Nilsen]

No idea, but the story was great! Thx

Its a good thing for Gentile that i was not in the 190, and a good thing for the 190 drivers that i was not in the Jug.

[AquaShrimp]

Not to get too off-topic here, but does anyone else find it ironic that in WW2, U.S. planes excelled because they were fast and heavy, and relatively unmaneuverable (P-51, P-47, F4U).  But in later wars, this fast and heavy approach led to their downfall and U.S. planes went back to being ultra-maneuverable (F-15, F-16, F-22).

[E25280]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Not to get too off-topic here, but does anyone else find it ironic that in WW2, U.S. planes excelled because they were fast and heavy, and relatively unmaneuverable (P-51, P-47, F4U).  But in later wars, this fast and heavy approach led to their downfall and U.S. planes went back to being ultra-maneuverable (F-15, F-16, F-22).

If the guided Air-to-Air missile had been invented in World War II, I'd wager the US would have tended away from "unmaneuverable" aircraft.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Not to get too off-topic here, but does anyone else find it ironic that in WW2, U.S. planes excelled because they were fast and heavy, and relatively unmaneuverable (P-51, P-47, F4U).

That's a huge crock of horse doobers.  U.S. fighters were every bit as maneuverable as the opposition.  The only country whose ships were consistently more maneuverable than America's was Japan.  Don't base your perception of reality on what you see in flight simulators.

[Krusty]

Strange, as a Fw190 and a 109G were supposed to easily outmanuver a P47 in almost any situation. Both would turn tighter than the P47, as the P47s didn't use flaps like they do in these flight sims. Might not want to base an argument like that on perceptions taken solely from flight sims

EDIT: Also, the PTO was a major theater of the war, and fighting there continued long after the fighting in Europe stopped. Even though the planes got even more and more lethal, they still out-turned and out-manuvered their US adversaries throughout the war.

It might also be construed as belittling the japanese aircraft by implying "oh, they don't count in the PTO".

[Benny Moore]

FW-190 had the same approximate turning ability as the Thunderbolt, and the Me-109 wasn't much better.  The P-47 had a lot more power than it does in the game, making it do everything better than its virtual representation in Aces High.  Regardless, turning circles isn't everything in maneuverability; for instance, the Thunderbolt easily out-rolled the Me-109 across the board.

[DiabloTX]

1000 Destroyed is one of the best WWII aviation book ever in regards to writing style and as an eyewitness account from a non-pilot.  I've read my copy many times, never get sick of it.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
But in later wars, this fast and heavy approach led to their downfall and U.S. planes went back to being ultra-maneuverable (F-15, F-16, F-22).

That must have been right about the time that extremely maneuverable and light Mig-17 shot down the Duke and Driscoll...Oh wait, it was the other way around.  The two-man Navy crew shot down the individual regarded as the most skilled NVAF (or Russian) pilot in theater.  And, with a plane having the unceremonious nickname of "Lead-Sled".

F-15 is a big plane, almost equal in size as an F-14

[AquaShrimp]

Stoney and Benny, trying reading a book sometime, you might learn something.

A CO of a P-47 squadron once said "I don't want any man in my squadron who will turn with the enemy.  Dive on your target, and use your momentum to carry you away".  I think it was Gabby.  

Stoney74, heres the *real* story behind that engagment between Duke and the Mig-17.  The Mig was actually gaining position on Duke's F-4 in a rolling scissors maneuver.  The pilot was NOT the infamous (and fictional) Major Tomb, but most likely a section or squadron leader.  The Mig-17 mysteriously broke off the engagement, which lead to it being shot down.  The two most plausible reasons for the Mig breaking off are (1) it was nearly out of fuel, or (2) ground controllers, which controlled North Vietnamese fighters, ordered the mig to disengage.

U.S. kill ratios in Vietnam were awful because of the poor maneuverability of the F-4.  Of course we all know the story of Top Gun, how ratios went from 2-1 to 12-1.  But do you all know what was actually taught there?  Two important things.  First, Top Gun taught pilots how to actually turn tighter than the Mig-17s.  It was a strange maneuver in which the pilot stalled the F-4, then used his rudder to rapidly rotate the nose in the direction he wanted.  Secondly, Top Gun taught that F-4s were to engage Migs 2 on 1.  Two F-4s were needed to shoot down 1 mig.

Also, the F-15 is actually more maneuverable than the F-16.  It does not have a g-limiter, has excellent wingloading, and a superb thrust to weight ratio.  It is the most maneuverable U.S. fighter without thrust vectoring.

[Angus]

F15 can turn on it's tail, and overall, F15 pilots refer to F16's as "half the F15"
As for Maneuverability in WW2, A Jug down low and at stall in a knifefight is on the bottom order of the single prop aircraft. The 190 has more power to weight, the 109 outturns it. The P51 applies flaps, and don't even think about getting a Spit glued on the tail....

Anyway, the US had one main rule right.
Speed & Teamwork!

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Stoney and Benny, trying reading a book sometime, you might learn something.

Sorry AquaShrimp, I weakened my argument by falling victim to an oft debated and truly still unresolved identity problem, so you're right about "Toon", whom you named, not me.  

But really, my lack of opposable thumbs makes it very difficult to simultaneously hold a book, and turn pages.  I'm gonna go find an ant hill to stick twigs in now...

[Ball]

I thought american fighters excelled in WWII because of their range...

all of them would have made crappy interceptors anyway.

[Guppy35]

Wow!  You guys took that off topic in a hurry.  Don't think Treize was asking about flight characteristics of the Jug, 190 etc.

A song written at the time to commemorate Gentile's "Help I'm being clobbered" day.  Wirtten by another 4th Pilot.

Sung to the tune  "Tramp tramp tramp the boys are marching."


"I was down upon the deck
I became a nervous wreck
As I dodged the trees just east of old Beauvai,
Jerries drove me nearly frantic
And I soon began to panic
Everyone on C channel soon heard me say,
Help help I'm being clobbered
Down here by the railroad track
Two 190s chase me 'round
And we're damn near to the ground
Tell them I got two if I don't make it back!

Went down with my number 2
Just to see what I could do.
And I soon found out that I was left alone.
How I shuddered as I turned,
All my ammunition burned
And I cried out in a very anguished tone:
Help help I'm being clobbered
Down here by the railroad track
Two 190s chase me 'round
And we're damn near to the ground
Tell them I got two if I don't make it back!"

If the Gentile biography can be believed, this became a theme song of the 4th Fighter Group

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
A CO of a P-47 squadron once said "I don't want any man in my squadron who will turn with the enemy.  Dive on your target, and use your momentum to carry you away".  I think it was Gabby.

That's funny, Bong and McGuire (the two top U.S. aces, both of whom got all their kills in P-38s) said the same thing to their squadrons.  Yet neither was afraid to dogfight with Zekes and Oscars, even in flat turns.  And don't give me the old "lol and look what happened to Mcguire" line, because the problem there was the drop tanks; drop tanks disrupted the airflow under the P-38's wing, altering its normally perfect stalling characteristics and introducing a nasty spin tendency.

You're once again confusing turning abilty with maneuverabilty.  Let me give you an example that doesn't involve an American airplane.  When the British captured an early FW-190, they did flight trials and compared it to a Spitfire Mark V.  They concluded that the Focke-Wulf was more maneuverable than the Spitfire in every way except turning circles.  The FW-190 had better roll, acceration, climb, and dive.  The implication is that the FW-190 performed vertical maneuvers, even a loop or Immelman, better than the Spitfire.

If this is true, then smart FW-190 pilots should not be turning with Spitfires, but should not be afraid to mix it up in a sustained, close-in dogfight, as long as they mainly use the vertical plane and not the horizonal.  The same was true, to an extent depending on the power rating and load, of the Republic P-47.  Oh, and I got all that information from books.