Was I Snookered at the Dealer?

[AWMac]

I'll flush out all vintage Volkswagen radiators for just $59.95!



Mac

[DiabloTX]

Your '05 Camry has rear drums?  That's odd.

Mac, send Al Gore the bill when you have to add liquid cooling to your VW's due to "global warming".

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by DiabloTX
Your '05 Camry has rear drums?  That's odd.

Mac, send Al Gore the bill when you have to add liquid cooling to your VW's due to "global warming".

According to Car.com it has 4 wheel disk brakes standard on the mid priced V6 model. I don't know about the low end model which does include antilock braking as a standard feature.

I would expect it to have 4 wheel disk brakes but I've been wrong before.

Mark

[ROC]

My wife has an 04 Camry.  I talked to my mechanic about the brake cleaning.  He laughed his butt off.  Wants to hire the guy who sold you that, he's been a bit off in revenue.

Seems to think That guy is worth a fortune.

Trans Fluid Change.  $49.95.

Oil Change, including Filter, and topping off All Fluids  26.95 and few bucks for waste disposal.

[Ball]

Noob question time... Reading that stuff about K&N air filters, how much difference does upgrading the stock air filter make to HP & Performance?

[storch]

you guys that think a tranny flush isn't necessary should drain the 3-4 quarts from the pan and look at it.  compare it to a some fresh tranny fluid.  regular fluid changes are the life of any piece of equipment.

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by Ball
Noob question time... Reading that stuff about K&N air filters, how much difference does upgrading the stock air filter make to HP & Performance?

Well, the HP and performance increase is minimal.  Some people swear by K&N's, other's think it's a waste of money.  I like them because the fact that they filter better, they were originally enigineered for off-road use in dusty, arid regions, and they are reusable, just simply wash and re-oil them.  Also, they seal better too.  The paper filter that came with my Z didn't seal very well at all and there was a tremendous about of dirt and dust in the botton of the filter box.  The K&N that fits my application actually came with a rubber seal with adhesive on it to help aid in the sealing.  Some people like this, others don't.  I also use K&N's oil filters.  They offer high filtration capablility with higher flow rates than normal filters.  They also have a cool "nut" molded into to bottom of the filter for easier removal.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Halo
Took my 2005 Toyota Camry in for an oil change at 21,952 miles.  Four months previously it had 20k service at 19,674 miles.  

Service manager said rear brakes needed cleaning ($79.95) and transmission fluid needed changing ($123.88).  I thought that was early for both jobs but agreed.  

Was I had?

I'm a low mileage driver but keep the Camry out on the highway enough to not let it sludge up.  

This dealership has a lifetime guarantee on major components as long as you have car serviced there.  One catch for this car is oil change required every 5,000 miles or FOUR months, not six as Toyota requires.  

I saw on line that around 2004 Toyota had problems with some engines sludging up because oil was not changed frequently enough in tough driving, e.g., big city commuting and traffic jams.  This dealer plan might be a way for Toyota to address the problem without making a big deal of it and impairing confidence in Toyota vehicles.  

Whatever, I'm in the four-month oil change cycle, and I don't like it.  I've always changed oil at 3,000 miles or six months, whichever came first.  Ironically, the Toyota dealer requirement is just about like that.  

Interestingly, my wife bought a 2007 Toyota Corolla and there is no dealer requirement for oil changes except at the usual Toyota 5,000 miles or SIX months.  

Some second opinions, please, especially from you car mechanics.

  To clean the brakes, go get a $2 can of brake cleaner and spray the brakes.  Oil change between 4 and 5 thousand miles, learn to do it yourself lest you want to be ripped off. The less you bring your car to any repair shop for any reason, the less you will be ripped.

[eagl]

Yea, you got ripped.  The services weren't unusual but the prices were a lot higher than they should have been.

Cleaning drum brakes involves removing the wheel, removing the drum, spraying in some cleaner, and replacing the drum and wheel.  Even at $50/hr, it shouldn't take more than 15 min.  They charged you for a full hour of labor plus the price of a full can of brake cleaner that they'll probably use on 20 cars.

For the tranny fluid change, same thing.  Even if they dropped the tranny pan, removed and replaced the fluid and filter (which they probably didn't do), you're still talking about 1 hr of labor, $10 worth of fluid, and a $15 filter.  $75 tops.  But they probably just loosened the tranny pan enough to let most of the fluid leak out, didn't even replace the seal or filter, tightened it back up and topped off the fluid in about 20 minutes.  That's about $30-$40 worth of work.

The last time I got ripped on a deal like that, I went back to the dealer and talked to the service manager.  I let him know that after doing some research, I felt I was being taken advantage of and that if I didn't get some sort of refund, I would take my business elsewhere.  He refunded about 30% of the charges and shook my hand when I left.  Although I still do some research before letting anyone do any work on my car, I take my car back to that same dealer whenever I need any major work done.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by DiabloTX
Yeah, I'd say you got taken.  Clean the rear brakes?  Never heard that one.  Especially since the fronts provide the majority of the stopping power.

A lot of the auto trannies coming out, and it has been this way for a while really, are service-free.  I remember seeing that in a Mercedes back in '98 or '99, may have been a W210 but not real sure.

Service free on W210 meant a 120k mile LIFETIME. When the first trannys started grinding to pieces Daimler-Benz changed the lifetime recommendation to 45k oil change interval.

[sluggish]

Originally posted by Ball
Noob question time... Reading that stuff about K&N air filters, how much difference does upgrading the stock air filter make to HP & Performance?

Most of the improvement with K and N is mental.  They claim "up to" 10 percent increase in hosepower and economy.  If this was true all the manufacturers would be putting them on in the factory (or at least copying them). What they do do is to make your car's intake louder and therefore make you think it's more powerful.  However, like any placebo, if you think it works, it does.  As far as the tornado thingy goes, anytime you stick something in your car's intake, airflow will be restricted.  If you want to improve flow, get a port and polish job, period.

Storch I bet your mechanic gives you a tongue kiss every time you walk in his door.  As long as the tranny fluid on the dipstick is bright red I wouldn't consider changing it before 100k.  If you are burning it before then you are abusing the vehicle or you have an inferior tranny or both.

[storch]

I do my own PM in house.  do you tongue kiss your mechanic and service people?  what a fuuny thing to type

[Halo]

To answer some of the questions and comments in this thread:

The 2005 Camry LE is top of the line except for leather seats and sunroof which I don't want.  I chose the 4-cylinder because it has plenty of power and better mileage.  A bonus is having the same fuel tank for the 6-cylinder, which gives me almost a 600-mile range.  

The 4-cylinder has disc brakes in front, drum in back; the 6-cylinder has disc front and back.  The 6-cylinder costs quite a bit more; I just didn't need that engine.  

Like many of you, I've had a wide range of cars and service experiences over the years.  My wife and I went with Toyota this time primarily for reliability.  I now can see some of that reliability apparently comes from guarantees that require frequent and sometimes extensive servicing.

I have no problem with that per se as long as the cost is competitive.

I've never had any interest in doing my own maintenance, so I'm at the mercy of mechanics.  Like many of you, I still can do research like this thread to stay reasonably informed.  

I am a big fan of preventive maintenance.  Used to be I had no choice but to scimp on maintenance and run my cars until they begged for care.  That sometimes would result in lower costs and longer intervals between service, but undoubtedly contributed to more expensive repairs later.

From things as basic as fixing bicycles, cleaning guns and other mechanical devices, it's obvious mechanical things love fresh fluids.  The question is how often to change them.  Not easy to find optimum intervals.  So we rely on averages and special conditions.

In this case, I figured from the pitch and the bill it was a cash cow for the dealer.  The actual procedures and supplies are simple.  It's easy if you have a hoist and power tools and some expertise.  I don't.  

The wheels are off anyway for rotation, the rear brakes look dirty, use a can of something and clean them.  Easy if you have that setup or do your own maintenance.  Not if you don't.  

The car is up on the hoist, the transmission fluid looks a little off, easy to change it if you have that setup or expertise.  I don't.  

Question becomes how much to charge.  Big difference in dealer's idea of reasonable and customer's idea of reasonable.

eagl, I like your approach.  The service manager calls to ask how I liked the service.  I'm going to tell him I respect their judgment that I needed the service, but I thought it was too expensive.  Now I can add that most my associates on my internet news group think I'm being ripped off.

Thanks much, guys, once again you have come through for a dweeb in need!  

[lazs2]

ball.. would agree that in most cases the K& N is not a big enough difference to notice.  I would say that it is like a 2% increase in HP and fuel economy on most vehicles... about the same as switching to a synthetic oil.   You might get 1 or two mpg better and maybe 3-10 hp depending on what you started with..

some of the more restrictive factory aircleaners and their plumbing are a different story tho.. you can see more like 7-8% but it involves more than the element.. it is the ducting to the cleaner too..   they are of course.. more expensive.

you might pick up a couple mpg and 5-10 hp (depending on what you started with) if you add the filter and the synthetic... you won't really be able to feel that unless you are sensitive to such things...   You will protect your engine better tho and... often.. the K & N sounds a little cooler when you get on it.

On changing automatic trans fluid....  when they used to use good old whale in the oil... you never had to change it... nowdays it is crap.   I don't like slush boxes anyway but I would change the fluid and filter at least every 50K... that's what I have done on the only slush box I own.

lazs

[Halo]

One more comment on choice of service locations.  Over the years for service to some 20 vehicles I've owned,  I've gone to dealers, gas stations, and the highest rated independent mechanics, and have to conclude that car maintenance is expensive no matter where it's done.

I've had good and bad experiences at all those types of locations.

I also know several people who do their own auto repair, and they have varying results with their own efforts.  Doesn't seem to be anything surefire when it comes to vehicle maintenance.  

My goal has always been to have cars that do fine locally and can be trusted to drive coast to coast if need be.  That's harder than it sounds.  

The longest I've kept a car is 15 years, a 1985 Pontiac 6000 LE sedan.  Great car, but after about nine years it was reliable enough only for local driving.  Never could tell what old part would break next, no matter what you replaced at recommended intervals.  

Several places I've read that most cars are designed for 70,000 miles and trucks for 100,000 miles.  We've all heard about people who do much better than that, and probably some of you have.  

Mechanical things can be sustained a very long time if you have the will and resources to coddle them.  Look at B-52 bombers -- more than 50 years old.  Imagine the huge cost of maintaining and updating them to last that long.  

Everything wears out eventually.  I may already have a car that will outlast me.  That's a sobering thought.