The Financial Costs of Fighting Global Warming

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Curval
"Curve, you can call me most anything except late for supper. I'll just consider the source. "

lol Mav.

I just found it funny that you immediately yelled for an epa study.  That's commie talk!

Like I said I was just repeating the same arguements that were used in this rather liberally green minded area I grew up in. I'm not a fan of the epa having had to deal with them through the Army when the greenies started to interfere in training.

[lasersailor184]

My physics teacher always used to harp on us, "Where is this energy coming from?  Have you suddenly found a way to create energy?" when we'd screw up energy problems.

If we place down 600,000 acres of solar panels, never mind WHERE we would put them, we'd be robbing 600,000 acres of life of energy.

What effect would that have on the environment?

[ghi]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
My physics teacher always used to harp on us, "Where is this energy coming from?  Have you suddenly found a way to create energy?" when we'd screw up energy problems.

If we place down 600,000 acres of solar panels, never mind WHERE we would put them, we'd be robbing 600,000 acres of life of energy.

What effect would that have on the environment?

 what enviroment ? in sunny AZ, South east CA,Nevada wouldn't disturb the sandy lifeless enviroment ,few cactus, rattle snakes , and lot of sunny days,  US has  some the best places for that kind of power stations

[eagl]

ghi,

Don't take this personally because you're probably just repeating crap you've probably read or heard, but have you ever studied those so-called "lifeless" areas?  I bet not.  They are actually fully developed and diverse ecosystems.  The idea that you can spread out energy farms in the desert without harming anything is nothing more than an expression of a typically ignorant city-dweller version of mindless eco-activism.

I've spent enough time in the desert to have a knowledgable appreciation for those ecosystems, and lasersailor has the right idea even if it's a bit short on details.  Desert ecosystems are among the most fragile on the planet, even if city dwellers and those who live in more humid climates can't see what's out there until it's pointed out to them.

Putting up acres of solar panels that block both sunlight and divert necessary rainfall would irrevocably change or destroy those areas because life of all kinds in the desert are very specifically adapted to those conditions and changes like that can easily wipe out a species just as quickly as clear-cutting forest.

[Jackal1]

Yea..........what would we ever do without rattlesnakes and horned toads in the desert? The total horror.

[Angus]

60 hectares x 4.761 = 2.856 sq.km, an area 53x53 km.
Plonk it down in Arizona
now go from 5% efficiency to Lazs estimated 80%, - that's 1/16th, which makes you need an area of 178 sq. km. That's about 13x13 km, a square to you in the U.S. of A. only abobe 8x8 miles.
That's not at all so much.

Anyway, wanted toask about something different. Does anyone of you have an idea where to find small equipment for getting energy out of the wind. I'm talking 30 KW or even less, while I have difficulties finding anything under 500 KW. I'm thinking about my home.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus

Anyway, wanted toask about something different. Does anyone of you have an idea where to find small equipment for getting energy out of the wind. I'm talking 30 KW or even less, while I have difficulties finding anything under 500 KW. I'm thinking about my home.

A Chevy fan blade from a 350 CI, two pulleys, a fan belt from an Edsel hooked to a generator from a Nash Rambler. Place equipment next to the O`club. All the power you need to run the normal household.

CAUTION: A rev limiter will have to be used to avoid total destruction.

[Jackal1]

Angus try here.....http://www.acsolar.com/wind.html

[lazs2]

mav..  the benifiets of solar panels on homes would be immense.   It would amount to free or near free electricity for citizens.. they would be selling back power to the plants during the day.   the grid would not be taxed so badly... the real power usage in the U.S. is in the daytime..   homes would actually be helping to power industry.

electric commute cars would be much more feasable with very cheap power.

right now, homes are being built with the crappy government sponsored (rebate  hell) panels and it takes half the roof but they end up getting the power bill down to a net of almost zero over the year (meter runs backwards much of the time).

If you had 80% efficient panels that tracked the sun...  How much hardship would having two of em on your roof or back yard be?   They would be selling kits at home depot.

I still believe that nuke plants need to be built tho.  

I predict that like internet service and long distance phone service.. the cost of electricity will go down in the future not up.   Might be a period of adjustment when it goes up because we cling to old power generation ideas but... if the government stays out of it... we should start seeing some inovative ideas.

lazs

[Curval]

This thread is not turning out the way I suspected it would...at all.

It's actually quite a sensible one.

[indy007]

Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, wanted toask about something different. Does anyone of you have an idea where to find small equipment for getting energy out of the wind. I'm talking 30 KW or even less, while I have difficulties finding anything under 500 KW. I'm thinking about my home.

Check out the turbines they use on sailboats. Small, quiet, good power generation. Nicer models come with clutches to prevent over-speed in higher than normal wind. Outputs vary pretty widely, but iirc, typical models can put out 400W in good winds.

It's not a choice for a stand-alone system for a home, but it's a good supplement to a complete micro-generation setup... solar panels, wind turbines, water turbines, whatever your property can handle.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by ghi
what enviroment ? in sunny AZ, South east CA,Nevada wouldn't disturb the sandy lifeless enviroment ,few cactus, rattle snakes , and lot of sunny days,  US has  some the best places for that kind of power stations

You can't wire the power across the United States.

And you can't wire it for distances too far.  Plopping down the solar panels in the desert only covers a tiny percent of the power of the US.  Where are you going to put them elsewhere?


And who's to say that putting the solar panels in the desert won't ruin that environment?

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
mav..  the benifiets of solar panels on homes would be immense.   It would amount to free or near free electricity for citizens.. they would be selling back power to the plants during the day.   the grid would not be taxed so badly... the real power usage in the U.S. is in the daytime..   homes would actually be helping to power industry.

electric commute cars would be much more feasable with very cheap power.

right now, homes are being built with the crappy government sponsored (rebate  hell) panels and it takes half the roof but they end up getting the power bill down to a net of almost zero over the year (meter runs backwards much of the time).

If you had 80% efficient panels that tracked the sun...  How much hardship would having two of em on your roof or back yard be?   They would be selling kits at home depot.

I still believe that nuke plants need to be built tho.  

I predict that like internet service and long distance phone service.. the cost of electricity will go down in the future not up.   Might be a period of adjustment when it goes up because we cling to old power generation ideas but... if the government stays out of it... we should start seeing some inovative ideas.

lazs

We're beginning with a project like this up here, in the farmlands.
The farmers that have some resource, typically a little stream, harness the energy, say up to 1 MW, and sell it to the network minus their own use.
Same might be up with windfarming. And since most farms are hooked up with the powergrid anyway.....
And then there is the wind. You have sunny areas and shady. You have windy areas and calm.
Ours is windy, but most of the sun is around when you need the least of energy.
So, I'm game for a wind project.
Lazs, Jackal, as much we have been tossing around, I appreciate your feedback and input on this. I will also post if I have some findings that turn into a project, - or a deeper question.

[oboe]

Originally posted by Angus
60 hectares x 4.761 = 2.856 sq.km, an area 53x53 km.
Plonk it down in Arizona
now go from 5% efficiency to Lazs estimated 80%, - that's 1/16th, which makes you need an area of 178 sq. km. That's about 13x13 km, a square to you in the U.S. of A. only abobe 8x8 miles.
That's not at all so much.

Anyway, wanted toask about something different. Does anyone of you have an idea where to find small equipment for getting energy out of the wind. I'm talking 30 KW or even less, while I have difficulties finding anything under 500 KW. I'm thinking about my home.

Angus, check out Southwest windpower:

http://www.windenergy.com/index_wind.htm

The Skystream is a 1.8kW unit.    The Whisper 500 is rated at about 3 kW I think.

[Sabre]

Interesting article about some research that goes against the accepted orthodoxy of man-made global warming.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece

Interesting how hard it was to get their work published, and how little attention it received once it was.