Piracy: A general discussion

[Mini D]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
You make the claim I thing I am 'entitiled' to make a backup.  Interesting choice of words.  You ever seen a DVD go out of production?  I have a couple of copies which are out of production.  If they go bad, there are no replacements for them.

So?

Nowhere in the license agreement for that content does it say I may not make a copy for my own use, quite the opposite actually.  If you do not like to make copies of your collection, that is your choice.  There is nothing illegal or unethical about making a copy of software you own, for your own use.

[/b]Once again... you are talking about yourself and refusing to acknowledge that this is the single largest exploited aspect of piracy these days.

If you, or anyone else, wants to take thier DVD media and spread peanut butter on them, I could care less.  Do I take a shot at MS?  You bet.  When they deserve it,  I will take a shot at them.  If you do not wish to, then don't.  But while you're at it, you can stop taking cheap shots at me as well.

[/b]This is obviously a touchy subject with you and sheds alot of light on your other comments.

Surely you can see how this is one of the most exploited features on a PC these days. Surely you can see that the advent of Netflix combined with this feature means that backups are more than just backups. Surely you can see that there was going to be some kind of attempt to address this. I mean... you're not that obtuse are you?

Tell me how doing what they have done in Vista is going to stop pirating.  I really would like to hear that answer.   Because the AACS has been broken now, which will allow anyone to make a copy of thier HD content using any other OS.  So, the only thing I see Vista doing is preventing legitimate users from making thier own backups of thier own media.

[/b]Stop or slow? Make it more difficult and it will happen less. Right now, anyone can plug in a computer and start downloading it as is demonstrated by the shear number of people doing it. I'm not talking about the numbers that the RIAA is displaying to congress... I'm just talking about what you can find easily on the internet with minimal effort. There is little to nothing that cannot be downloaded.

You're basically arguing that there's no way to control the speed limit of cars, so they shouldn't. Say that one loud enough and see what happens.

Last time I checked into copyright law, it was still legal to do that.  If those laws have changed, please enlighten me.

Show me where I said you were doing anything illegal. I still maintain that you are confusing what is legal with what someone is required to allow you to do. There's no law saying that Microsoft has to support your "backup" requirements. It should be apparent to you that there are other motivating factors that drove this decision and if "backups" were their only concern we wouldn't have seen anything done here. You know this... right?

Accusing me of taking cheap shots while you are doing it in the same post is rather hypocritical.  I have answered all your questions, with facts, about the deficiencies of the current implementation of Vista.  And ther are more.  Spend a day or two at MS's own TechNet and you will see many more.

You have not answered with facts skuzzy. You have answered with rhetoric. It may be the other side of the fence rhetoric, but it is still rhetoric.

Vista will mess with HD playback until hardware vendors get with the MS program... or MS will simply have to adjust their program because there are other OSs that will do the job.

I have made every attempt to be clear about whether or not it is my opinion, or a fact.  If I have erred in that, then I will be happy to correct it.  If I have made an error in any of my claims about Vista, please let me know.  I endeavor to be accurate.  it is important.

You're frothing at the mouth now... time to get over yourself too.

You have yet to offer anything substantial, other than your own cheap shots.  By the way, we are a developer, and you will not find Vista anywhere close to a production computer system for a very long time.  So that is one developers opinion.  There is nothing in Vista which will help us do anything better or faster.  Quite the opposite acutally.  It would only slow us down.

I'm sure it will skuzzy, afterall, you say so. Or... is this another fact? What do you think will happen "in a very long time" that will change things?

You may see this as simple bashing of MS, but it is not that at all.  It is an attempt to provide more information about Vista, rather than the marketing spiel MS spews forth.  If you have something to add, please do so.

I do not see this as a simple bashing of MS, skuzzy. Once again, I will not be loading vista. I see this as over-hyped knee-jerk reaction to something that will not be anywhere near the impact you are citing or any of the doom-n-gloom cites are predicting.

I'm sorry some of your software won't work under vista. It seems you still have other options. I'd be willing to bet that eventually it will work under vista and you'll forget you ever said these things because, well, you actually aren't the end-all-be-all of OS development.

So... pretend that Win2k is the bestest thing since sliced bread and you'll never need anything else... ever. I'm thinking there will be much better software in the next 5 years that will blow the current stuff away.

This whole thing just reminds me so much of forcing people to 32 bit development that it makes me laugh. Seeing the same people say the same thing over and over for every single release of anything makes me laugh just as much. Watching people insist that something won't be good and they know more than the developers about it is just about as funny.

I'm sure that Vista is not all that Microsoft is presenting it to be. That would be called marketing. I'm pretty sure you could say the same thing about AH and be accurate to some degree. In the end, it all works itself out. If it doesn't... there's always apple.

[Mini D]

How about answering this simple question:

How do you prevent DvDs, CDs and such from being freely distributed over the internet?

[Rolex]

Shouldn't we also criminalize the lending of DVDs, CDs, textbooks, novels, newspapers or magazines to friends and familiy members? Why would anyone think that either can be "prevented?"

[Skuzzy]

Originally posted by Mini D
How about answering this simple question:

How do you prevent DvDs, CDs and such from being freely distributed over the internet?

Oh, I see, I should go ahead and asnwer your questions, while you ignore mine.  When you are ready to have a conversation, let me know.

But you probably will just take more cheap shots as that is all you seem capable of doing.  nevermind addressing the differences between Vista and XP.

Oh, there is one thing you ar off on in your diatribe.  I will never have a need to install Vista on any computer I own.  The design considerations MS has made which has broken mauch of my software are not bugs.

Are you just afraid to learn the truth?  You do not have to take my word on any of this.  No one does.  Go to TechNet and read about it yourself.  You obviously have not done that or you would not be spewing the rhetoric you are.

I have no time for anyone who wishes to remain ignorant on the topic of the differences between XP and Vista.  Or how it could/can impact what you want to do with your computer.

I spend a lot of time going over tech articles all the time and do my best to distill them down to something most people can understand.  I do not have to do this at all.  You are taking this to a personal level and I do not appreciate it. It is not germaine to the discussion.

So, may I suggest, either becoming part of the discussion, or just leave this thread and create your own.
--
As to this question you are asking.   There is a very simple solution and it will stop 100% of the piracy over the Internet.   I could even gaurantee it.  That is how effective it would be.

But I will not elaborate on it, as there is no point in it,  Piracy of HD content is already happening.  Vista will not do one thing to slow down people who will pirate, as pirates do not need to use Vista.  Vista hurts legitimate users.

DRM and HDCP have real costs associated with those technologies.  Consumers are paying for that.  Paying for technologies which will do nothing to ward off piracy is a waste or time and money.

In the end the consumer pays more for everything related to the video and audio stream, even if they do not use and HD content, they will pay for the right to do so.

And now that they are paying for the right to view or listen to it, they will be blocked from making any backups of it.  They wil not be able to protect thier investment.  I really could care less if you want to protect your investment or not.  Some people wash and wax thier car, and some do not, but they have a choice to do so.

It seems the only people not being hurt are the pirates.  Here is something for you to chew on.  You make the claim I will back off of everything I am saying about Vista in the future.  I doubt I will, as this is about technologies, and my stance will only change when MS changes how they are doing things in Vista.

Let me predict this.  Piracy will be higher than ever as it pertains to HD content.  I am pretty confident in that opinion.  But if you really want to just discuss piracy, how about moving it to another thread?

[republic]

Originally posted by Mini D
You do realize that 99% of the rest of the PC world exploits this... right?

That's a silly statement.  Even the bleakest report from the RIAA put the percentage closer to 25%.  DRM in it's current state does nothing to prevent a committed person who wants to steal...and it never will.  Yet we still see prolific intrusive DRM that does nothing to prevent priacy, and yet frustrates the remainder of us.   At best, DRM stops the casual pirate....at worst DRM gives corporations total control over something YOU purchased.  What if the print media were like that?  What if DRM existed in every day life...so when you went to a restaurant they watched to make sure you didn't share a meatball with your wife, because only you were licensed the meatball...not her.  

Companies like Stardock understand that DRM only hurts Joe user, and does nothing to stop the pirate....  I've purposefully not bought a game because it shipped with starforce protection...if you've ever had issues with starforce...you'd lose some of your fuzzy feelings about DRM.

It's all about the almighty dollar...and in the end...I wonder if the corporations are losing more money through piracy...or through their attempts to stop piracy.

[Skuzzy]

Ok, MiniD, I did not move your last post over as it had been edited out due to a violation of Rule #4.  If you want to discuss piracy, then let's keep it civil.

[Krusty]

Follow-up to Republic's comment: for those that don't know, Boycott Starforce

[Mini D]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
But you probably will just take more cheap shots as that is all you seem capable of doing.  nevermind addressing the differences between Vista and XP.

I have no time for anyone who wishes to remain ignorant on the topic of the differences between XP and Vista.  Or how it could/can impact what you want to do with your computer.
/quote]doublestandard

As to this question you are asking.   There is a very simple solution and it will stop 100% of the piracy over the Internet.   I could even gaurantee it.  That is how effective it would be.

But I will not elaborate on it, as there is no point in it,  Piracy of HD content is already happening.  Vista will not do one thing to slow down people who will pirate, as pirates do not need to use Vista.  Vista hurts legitimate users.

LOL! elaborate or don't bring it up. Jeez man.

DRM and HDCP have real costs associated with those technologies.  Consumers are paying for that.  Paying for technologies which will do nothing to ward off piracy is a waste or time and money.

Do nothing to ward off piracy? Do "nothing" to ward off piracy? You're confusing not doing enough with doing nothing.

And now that they are paying for the right to view or listen to it, they will be blocked from making any backups of it.  They wil not be able to protect thier investment.  I really could care less if you want to protect your investment or not.  Some people wash and wax thier car, and some do not, but they have a choice to do so.

Maybe you could just wax your DvDs or do something to protect their well being better? Putting a coat of wax on a car does not mean you'll have a new car after you total it in an accident. You're making up absolutely new "rules" for these products because it's something you've gotten used to. This was allowed in the past because there was no way to really prevent it. It really seems they're just addressing this now. Digital content seems to be the only thing that falls into this "I am entitled to back it up" belief system. It is counter to every other product offered in every other market.

It seems the only people not being hurt are the pirates.  Here is something for you to chew on.  You make the claim I will back off of everything I am saying about Vista in the future.  I doubt I will, as this is about technologies, and my stance will only change when MS changes how they are doing things in Vista.

Let me predict this.  Piracy will be higher than ever as it pertains to HD content.  I am pretty confident in that opinion.  But if you really want to just discuss piracy, how about moving it to another thread?

Piracy will be higher than ever? What does that mean?

I guarantee there will be piracy. I guarantee the average consumer will be able to view HD content. I guarantee that the average user will have a difficult time pirating things.

I know many people that have extensive netflix generated DvD collections. I can fully understand companies taking steps to prevent this. This is not an attack on the community, it is a response to it. HD content simply allows measures to be put in place as the technology is being developed rather than the result we've already seen from DvDs and CDs where essentially nothing can be done.

As far as the implimentation goes, there's definately going to be problems. The system is definately something to avoid until these are worked out. But I get the impression that alot of the things people are saying "won't be possible" will be possible. At that time, they'll just shut up and move on to the next new thing that they know more about than anyone else and pretend they forsee something else.

Look forward more. Think more. Stop being obtuse.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Mini D

For whomever was saying anything discourages development... HAHAHAHAHAHA! Anything new means new programs and new development. It means new buisness opportunities. If anything, developers will benifit from this. Hardware manufacturers will have to do a dance, but I guess I'm not to sympathetic to the plight of the two video card manufacturers on the market or the one non-mobo sound card company developing things. Something in the past has already discouraged development in those areas... I suppose it was something else Microsoft did.

Sales are going down on DRM content. I'm sure that encourages content providers to produce more.

Putting a coat of wax on a car does not mean you'll have a new car after you total it in an accident.

That's because you own the car and can do whatever you want with it, including copy it at will. With media, you're licensed to use the media you never get to own it. That means that if one buys a right to use a media, it has _nothing_ to do with the physical means of delivering it. But the problem is the media giants want to have their cake and eat it too. They say you don't own your physical media - but they refuse to replace the broken ones for a copy fee either. It's completely illogical licensing wise and legalized robbery after the fact.

[Mini D]

Originally posted by Krusty
Follow-up to Republic's comment: for those that don't know, Boycott Starforce

Starforce is actually an interesting argument against most of what skuzzy has claimed.

Using starforce involves additional development costs, impacts development time, possibly impacts game performance, yet it's still being adopted by developers. Why is that?

[Mini D]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Sales are going down on DRM content. I'm sure that encourages content providers to produce more.

What DRM content are you reffering to? Talk about vague.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Mini D
What DRM content are you reffering to? Talk about vague.

Vague? ROFL! You must be working for MPAA or RIAA. That's just surreal.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?RSS&newsID=17184

http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI4MywxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2007-02-09-emi-unprotected-music_x.htm?POE=TECISVA

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Mini D
Starforce is actually an interesting argument against most of what skuzzy has claimed.

Using starforce involves additional development costs, impacts development time, possibly impacts game performance, yet it's still being adopted by developers. Why is that?

It was dumped by Ubisoft when they realized it was a load of crap. The only reason it's being adopted by developers is MARKETING AND FALSE PROMISES. Christ.

On a related note I recently had to reinstall my computer after the starforce remover tool had corrupted the windows installation. Took the SF through a game demo, it installs without warning and silent.

I reinstalled and downloaded a no-dvd patch for my SHIII at the same time. So yes, it seems to be effective.

SHIII _is_ the first and the last SF title I'll ever make the mistake to buy tho.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
It was dumped by Ubisoft when they realized it was a load of crap. The only reason it's being adopted by developers is MARKETING AND FALSE PROMISES. Christ.

Hrm... kinda like Vista DRM, eh?

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
On a related note I recently had to reinstall my computer after the starforce remover tool had corrupted the windows installation. Took the SF through a game demo, it installs without warning and silent.

Hrm.. ALSO kinda like Vista DRM, eh?


Vista = Starforce! Boycott Vista!

[Mini D]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
It was dumped by Ubisoft when they realized it was a load of crap. The only reason it's being adopted by developers is MARKETING AND FALSE PROMISES. Christ.

I've never met a more obtuse group in my life.

WHY DID THEY ADOPT IT!?! WHAT WAS THE MARKETING THAT MADE THEM ADOPT IT!?! WHAT MARKETING MADE THEM CHOSE (not be forced) TO BUY AN ADDITIONAL DEVELOPMENT PACKAGE AND ADD DESIGN OVERHEAD TO THEIR PRODUCT!?!

PS... none of those links show a slow in DRM sales.