Author Topic: Piracy: A general discussion  (Read 7579 times)

Offline Mini D

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Piracy: A general discussion
« on: February 12, 2007, 12:00:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy


Vista breaks some very high end multi-media software.  And MS did it intentionally in order to support DRM.  Or more pointedly, they could not figure out how to make some things work, so they abandoned the API's used by those very high end packages.
You're going to have to qualify this skuzzy. This statement gives the impression that you are trying to villify MS for the sake of it rather than actually addressing what is and isn't "broken" and exactly why it was done this way.

I've seen several statements about what DRM is going to do and how bad everything has gotten since mid version9 of Media player. I'm wondering exactly what's going on here as I've not had a problem with media player 11 playing any MP3 I've thrown at it.

Is this an attempt to put tighter reign on proprietary compression such as .mp4 and .dvx? Is this because of licensing issues with the people that own the rights to the compression? Is this the same with the HD stuff?

Since you're so in the know, could you please provide a little more information and a little less ranting?

Offline Skuzzy

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 12:13:22 PM »
MS pulled the mechanism to allow ASIO drivers to work.  ASIO is no longer supported in Vista.  ASIO is used by virtually all high end audio packages for editing.

You can make ASIO work, but you have to do it via using the Vista upgrade, and update an existing XP installation which already has all the ASIO drivers installed.

MS pulled ASIO as they had no way to insure DRM would be supported.

DirectX plug-in filters no longer work due to MS pulling the DX Sound API and folding it all into the normal Windows sound API, which does not support all the features of the DX Sound API.

THE DX Sound API has been canned as MS could not get DRM support in it either.


MP3's should not be too much trouble.  The DRM issues will hit you hard with any HD content (audio or video).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:15:51 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Mini D

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2007, 10:57:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
MS pulled ASIO as they had no way to insure DRM would be supported.
So... ASIO would be a means to bypass DRM?

Offline Skuzzy

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 06:41:11 AM »
ASIO was not created at MS.  It was actually created by the many high end audio editing software companies.  It came about as there was a desparate need for a low latency, non-buffered, synchronous, sound API for Windows.

When you edit sound, unlike video, you only have a time cue to work with.  There is no accurate visual indicator, like video, to tell if you are in sync or not with the other tracks.

The best side effect of ASIO was it was the first API which allowed 96Khz sampled music to play accurately on a reasonably fast system.  It also allowed low overhead for the decoding of Dolby tracks in movies and for that audio to be played very precisely with the video content.

What happens without ASIO, is those packages revert to lower sample rates/slower streams in order to make up for the longer delays in audio playback.

Compromises in the video and audio will be done in order to keep it synchronized.  As all versions of Windows sound API's treat audio as asynchronous events, another method to provide a synchronous event was/is needed.  These are the original reasons ASIO came to exist.  To solve those problems.

So, MS could never add DRM, and so they figured out how to prevent ASIO from being added to Vista.  What they did not know, was that most sound card companies had been using ASIO to play all the audio in Windows for some time now.  It simply worked better than the sound system in Windows.  With lower overhead, and faster throughputs, audio suddenly became smoother, with less audio being dropped in games, for example.

So back to your original question.  DRM, for audio, would only come into play for recording.  And it would only effect recording through the digital inputs of the audio card.  And in that specific instance, DRM can be by-passed for audio using ASIO.

Now, piracy of audio never made use of ASIO in the past.  And that is because you can simply copy the data from a CD, without having to resort to playing and recording it on your computer.

But, with the advent of HD content.  You will no longer be able to copy that data from the media to your hard drive.  And as it is encrypted, you simply cannot extract the audio trackes from the media like you can from a normal DVD.  So, if you want to copy the audio, you have to play it back and record it.  ASIO would have allowed that to happen.

This is what I have been stressing about DRM.  It only effects HD content, directly.  Indirectly, everything in your computer has to pass through that additional layer of software.  Which, of course, slows down everything to some degree.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 06:51:23 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Mini D

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 07:47:44 AM »
Back to my question: ASIO would allow bypassing of DRM? From what you've said, it appears it would.

One of the main "gotchas" towards introducing licensed products to a computer seemed to be the inability to keep it from being reproduced. DRM seems to be a way to prevent that. I'm failing to see how it intrudes on your rights. I would also imagine that any high-end video editing software you have will most likely release something that "fixes them" on vista.

I've not seen you address anything about Vista being a more secure platform for developers. It seems, to me, that this is it's main selling point. Does Vista offer some means for stopping the distribution of pirated software?

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 09:34:52 AM »
Quote
So back to your original question. DRM, for audio, would only come into play for recording. And it would only effect recording through the digital inputs of the audio card. And in that specific instance, DRM can be by-passed for audio using ASIO.


DRM will prevent you from making a copy of your legally purchased HD content, if the manufacturer of said content does not want you to make a copy.  You will not know you cannot make a backup, until it is too late.

How about not being able to view HD content you purchase on your computer.  I call that pretty intrusive.  If Vista determines you are attempting to view or listen to HD content, but any part of your computer does not have the HDCP hardware in the chain (monitor, video card, sound card...), then Vista will roll you back to lesser quality output.

Tell me you would not be a little pissed off when that happens to you.

DRM will not prevent piracy.  Pirates simply will use another OS to make thier copies.  DRM just restricts the normal consumer from doing perfectly legal things with thier software/content.

I have not said anything about the security as it really does not mean much.  Any developer depending on the local operating system to provide the security for thier livelihood is just foolish.

Most developers lack the discipline to work in a truly secure environment, so security has to be done in the least intrusive manner possible or you end up with a bunch of frustrated programmers, which is very counter-productive.

Vista is still inherently insecure, as will be any MS OS.  It is the nature of the design which makes it inherently insecure.  Sure, you can slap bandaids on top of the leaks and MS will continue to do that.  Even MS has stated Windows was never designed with security in mind.  MS is very careful about how its marketing addresses security.  "More secure" does not imply it is secure.

And developers would also strongly dislike the performance lost with this OS.  The longer the compile times, the less productive you are.  Vista assures about a 30% longer compile time for most projects.

Developers would also hate to have to purchase more hardware just to come up slightly slower in compile times.  It is a waste of money, for virtually no benefit.

And to answer the question about piracy.  No, Vista will not stop piracy at all.  It just makes life more difficult for the end user, as it pertains to any type of HD content.  You can still duplicate CD's to your hearts contents.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 09:50:43 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Mini D

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 09:52:05 AM »
I fail to see how making "backups" of your HD content matters one bit. This has long been an excuse for other actions rather than a necessity.

As for what will and won't play HD content, you seem to go into vague mode again. What exactly do you mean by "doesn't have the HDCP content in the chain". Is HDCP a HD certified product? Is licensing a requirement for this?

Next question: Will the availability of copy protection encourage or discourage development?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2007, 10:25:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
I fail to see how making "backups" of your HD content matters one bit. This has long been an excuse for other actions rather than a necessity.

As for what will and won't play HD content, you seem to go into vague mode again. What exactly do you mean by "doesn't have the HDCP content in the chain". Is HDCP a HD certified product? Is licensing a requirement for this?

Next question: Will the availability of copy protection encourage or discourage development?


Copy protection already has discouraged both development and consumer spending through severe compatability problems on consumer hardware and it will only get worse. Why do you think EMI considers getting rid of DRM? Because the system works? :rolleyes:

As for the rest of the pseudotechnical whine if you don't know what hdcp chain is or understand why people need backups maybe you're in the wrong discussion.
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Offline jodgi

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2007, 10:47:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D What exactly do you mean by "doesn't have the HDCP content in the chain". Is HDCP a HD certified product? Is licensing a requirement for this?[/B]


I've posted it before and it's a long read, but it will (possibly) answer most of the questions you have.

Quote
Originally posted by Mini D I fail to see how making "backups" of your HD content matters one bit.[/B]


Yea, why should that matter to general OS functionality? Read on...

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Offline Skuzzy

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2007, 11:15:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
I fail to see how making "backups" of your HD content matters one bit. This has long been an excuse for other actions rather than a necessity.

As for what will and won't play HD content, you seem to go into vague mode again. What exactly do you mean by "doesn't have the HDCP content in the chain". Is HDCP a HD certified product? Is licensing a requirement for this?

Next question: Will the availability of copy protection encourage or discourage development?
I am not trying to be vague.  I presume people know about HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection) and DRM (Digital Rights Management).  As you work for a company who is instrumental in HDCP, I really did assume you knew about it. If you want to learn about HDCP, then here ya go.

I have a rather large DVD library.  My practice is to take the original DVD, and make a backup for use.  That way if the disc gets damaged, for whatever reason, I can make another one.

After the original is 3 years old, I make a copy of it, and throw away the original.  This helps to prevent my movies from going bad over time.

I make no copies of anything for anyone else.  This is all for my own private use.  I also do a lot of other things for my own personal use.  Such as creating a Dolby Digital sound track for my original Star Wars movie I moved from Laser Disc.
---
Your question about copy protection is vague and covers a lot of territory.  Care to refine that a bit?  Specifically, when you ask about encouraging or discouraing development, the developement of what would be pertinent.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 12:52:55 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2007, 02:26:46 PM »
So much for HDCP.  A hacker has finally found the universal AACS key to allow the decrypting of any HD or BluRay DVD movie, and has published the information.  

Now the pirates can pirate all day long, while the legitimate users are still screwed using Vista.
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Offline Bronk

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2007, 02:32:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
So much for HDCP.  A hacker has finally found the universal AACS key to allow the decrypting of any HD or BluRay DVD movie, and has published the information.  

Now the pirates can pirate all day long, while the legitimate users are still screwed using Vista.


I'm not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.

I'm being serious.


Bronk
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 02:53:04 PM »
Well, it just proves the futility of trying to protect digital content via encryption.

I, for one, would like to see it all fail.  I am a videophile and audiophile.  I love my toys and will pay a lot of money for them.  However, I refuse to buy one HD or BluRay disc, nor player, simply due to the fact I cannot make a backup copy of the media.  

While I will not support piracy by obtaining pirated content, I will be rooting for them to just bust this stuff all to heck and back.  I would rather see HD content pulled from the shelves than the current implementation being done.

I wish people had more guts to walk away from this type of technology.  Technology which hampers the end user is not good and should never be considered an option.  This is not the way to stop piracy.  It only makes it worse.
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Offline Mini D

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Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 08:30:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I am not trying to be vague.  I presume people know about HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection) and DRM (Digital Rights Management).  As you work for a company who is instrumental in HDCP, I really did assume you knew about it. If you want to learn about HDCP, then here ya go.
I build em, I don't design em.
Quote
I have a rather large DVD library.  My practice is to take the original DVD, and make a backup for use.  That way if the disc gets damaged, for whatever reason, I can make another one.
You don't have to explain your actions as they're not what I question. You do realize that 99% of the rest of the PC world exploits this... right?

I have a large DvD collection too. I guess I'm missing how losing a DvD would impact you to any degree other than having to fork out another $10 for it. The value of a restored disk makes the DvD worthless... so value retention isn't there. What I really don't understand is why you think you're entitled to a backup of a product you bought.

I also chuckle at the last MS dig you got in there. It really is that you hate them more than you evaluate them. I do think Bronk gets things, though.

For whomever was saying anything discourages development... HAHAHAHAHAHA! Anything new means new programs and new development. It means new buisness opportunities. If anything, developers will benifit from this. Hardware manufacturers will have to do a dance, but I guess I'm not to sympathetic to the plight of the two video card manufacturers on the market or the one non-mobo sound card company developing things. Something in the past has already discouraged development in those areas... I suppose it was something else Microsoft did.

The driver performance and support is going to be a pain in the ass. It always has been. In a year or two it won't be anywhere near as problematic. The people buying the OS this year will be the ones paying the price and a big thanks to them.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 09:13:12 PM »
Oh good lord, get over yourself.  You have yet to address anything I have answered with anything other than your own opinion.  So what makes your opinion so much better than anyone else's?

You make the claim I thing I am 'entitiled' to make a backup.  Interesting choice of words.  You ever seen a DVD go out of production?  I have a couple of copies which are out of production.  If they go bad, there are no replacements for them.

Nowhere in the license agreement for that content does it say I may not make a copy for my own use, quite the opposite actually.  If you do not like to make copies of your collection, that is your choice.  There is nothing illegal or unethical about making a copy of software you own, for your own use.

If you, or anyone else, wants to take thier DVD media and spread peanut butter on them, I could care less.  Do I take a shot at MS?  You bet.  When they deserve it,  I will take a shot at them.  If you do not wish to, then don't.  But while you're at it, you can stop taking cheap shots at me as well.

Tell me how doing what they have done in Vista is going to stop pirating.  I really would like to hear that answer.   Because the AACS has been broken now, which will allow anyone to make a copy of thier HD content using any other OS.  So, the only thing I see Vista doing is preventing legitimate users from making thier own backups of thier own media.

Last time I checked into copyright law, it was still legal to do that.  If those laws have changed, please enlighten me.
 
Accusing me of taking cheap shots while you are doing it in the same post is rather hypocritical.  I have answered all your questions, with facts, about the deficiencies of the current implementation of Vista.  And ther are more.  Spend a day or two at MS's own TechNet and you will see many more.

I have made every attempt to be clear about whether or not it is my opinion, or a fact.  If I have erred in that, then I will be happy to correct it.  If I have made an error in any of my claims about Vista, please let me know.  I endeavor to be accurate.  it is important.

You have yet to offer anything substantial, other than your own cheap shots.  By the way, we are a developer, and you will not find Vista anywhere close to a production computer system for a very long time.  So that is one developers opinion.  There is nothing in Vista which will help us do anything better or faster.  Quite the opposite acutally.  It would only slow us down.

You may see this as simple bashing of MS, but it is not that at all.  It is an attempt to provide more information about Vista, rather than the marketing spiel MS spews forth.  If you have something to add, please do so.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 09:41:24 PM by Skuzzy »
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