Author Topic: triggers and guns..  (Read 1061 times)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
triggers and guns..
« on: February 20, 2007, 02:14:45 PM »
What's the rationale behind splitting the a certain portion of on-board guns by primary and secondary fire triggers in AH?

 I've never given this a serious thought before I realized that spitting up the pairs of guns by primary and secondary may be responsible for granting perhaps some ahistoric advantage to planes that were not able to fire individual sets of guns. They not may be big advantages, but in field of combat even the smallest of advantages could effect the outcome of the fight.

 ...

 The most obvious advantage IMO would be the ammo saving effect. I know for a fact that quite many of the ace pilots in AH fire separate sets of guns in multi-HMG or multi-cannon planes to maximize their firing time.

 Usually only the planes with mixed armament would have two (or perhaps even three) triggers, most likely separate buttons for MGs and cannons. Spitfires or 109s, Yaks, P-38s would fall under this category. In the case of the Fw190, the outboard armament had varied options according to the mission as they would either mount 20mms or 30mms. Therefore the primary trigger fired the cowl MGs and inboard 20mms, while the secondary fired outboard cannons.

 However, in AH things are quite different. For example, lets look at the F4U-1C. The Hispanos are the deadliest cannons in the game and in most cases firing only two 20mm cannons is more than enough to bring down a fighter. In effect, by firing two guns at a time the F4U-1C doubles its firing time from what should be 22 seconds total to maximum 44 seconds(data from ACES HIGH¢â FIGHTER PERFORMANCE COMPARISON).

 I am unaware if the F4U-1C has two triggers on its control column or only one, but to my knowledge most WW2 fighters in general which were armed with multiple sets of identical guns seems to have had only one primary fire trigger which would fire all guns simultaneously. The P-51 fired all four/six guns, the P-47 fired all eight. I would guess it was the same for planes like the Typhoon also. In effect, the P-47 doubles its firing time from 32 seconds total to an woppin' 64 seconds, the P-51 can extend upto 50 seconds firing time, from what should be only 30 seconds (with one set of guns running dry before the other two sets).

 Ofcourse, despite this very generous trigger setting in AH, many people consider it more important to maximize firing power than sustain a longer firing time, so often they would voluntarily fire all guns simultaneously in the 'historic fashion'. But I am not interested in individual preference to the current setting, but rather the fact that some planes are given an ahistorical, lenient choice when it comes to judging how much firepower the pilot needs for the task at hand.

 A most clever pilot in a plane such as the P-47, will be able to fly wiser than most people, and use only four guns in general combat, firing the maximum salvo of 8 guns only when he feels he has the perfect aim, or perhaps in close quarters snapshots. By such management, he is allowed to save much of his ammo in situations which he shouldn't be able to do so, and thus increasing the combat effectiveness of his plane of choice.

 
 Perhaps a second, possible advantage may be in aiming and firing the guns itself. I am not sure how gun recoil and dispersion is treated in AH, although the visual indication of the gun vibrations seem to be purely cosmetic. If we assume that AH indeed does have some kind of a recoil effect when firing heavy gun loads, that may effect the overall ballistics of the individual round fired, then in theory (using the P-47 as an example), would firing four guns only not provide a much better aim than firing all eight simultaneously?

 Then this presents a certain problem. In many cases planes armed with multiple sets of identical weaponery, tend to have massive ammo loads (such as the F4U-1C, P-47, P-51.. etc.). If firing limited sets of guns does in fact provide better ballistics for the guns than all guns firing simultaneously, then by doing so the plane is not only able to save considerable amounts of ammo, but also be provided with better accuract (however slight it may be) than it should be.

 Although it may be far-fetched, perhaps this is one of the reasons which may attribute to the frequency of long ranged kills happening in the game. The pilot is first provided with numerical info on exactly how much rounds he has left (which encourages him to view 'spraying' or 'sniping' long distances as an acceptable risk, since he has exact information on his ammo state), then he fires only limited sets of guns (which minimizes the risk of firing too much ammo against targets too far away), and then his action is rewarded with slightly better accuracy (since gun recoil/vibraton is halved by firing only half of his guns). While it does take a skilled marksman to hit long distance targets, perhpas not all of his feats of shooting down planes at 600 yards is due to pure skill. Who knows?


 A third potential advantage might be the decluttering of views, in some of the cases when the pilot prefers using tracer rounds. (Although it is likely that a pilot who prefers uncluttered views would be more likely to not use tracers at all).
 
 ...

 In conclusion, I really don't understand why some of the guns were split by triggers in the first place. Some of the advantages gained by some planes with such trigger setting may not be much, but in the case of ammo conservation this is a significant advantage over planes which cannot split their ammo load by different triggers.

 Imagine a three cannoned La-7 that uses two cannons for primary fire, and one cannon for secondary fire. The pilot would be able to double his firing time by using each of the triggers separately, perhaps using only one cannon while spraying or sniping or attacking in a "sure kill" situation(such as against a C-47), while using two cannons in more general combat situation.

 The Soviet cannons are generally very fast firing, and with it comes the inherent problem of firing time. The La-7 has only 13 seconds of firing time. It is one of its weaknesses, both in the historical, and in the game. However, if the pilot is given an ahistorical choice to use different sets of guns, and uses them according to the situation at hand, he may be able to double his firing time in the La-7 to maximum 26 seconds. A single 20mm is weak, but it is still very potent enough to bring down a fighter. In this assumption the La-7 is provided the ability to choose the amount of ammunition used according to the task at hand - an advantage which should not have been given to, in the first place.

 If that be the case, why do all multi-HMG, multi-cannon planes in AH use different sets of triggers to split their gun salvo ahistorically? Why are some planes, like the La-7, left out of this then? I'm not implying its a bias. I'm simply implying that it is wrong, and may be controversial.

 Perhaps the "user-friendly" nature of the initial versions of first Aces High made it necessary for the developers to think of splitting triggers and weaponery. Perhaps they wanted to make it possible for the gamers to"map" some of the guns to the secondary fire button on their stick, so its more fun and convenient. However, the more recent changes seem to indicate that perhaps HTC is rethinking the importance of historical representation and immersion levels.

 Then would it not be a good idea to "rewire" the trriggers historically? Especially if it would correct a potentially 'illegal advantage' situation in some of the plane. As I understand, many pilots of AH seem to be proponents for the game pilot being able to fire separate sets of guns by different triggers. But I serious doubt they would feel the same if the importance of conveninece is to override reality in other matters, such as FMs, DMs, or whatnot. Then the protests against 'wrong models' would probably go off the scale.

 So why should it be any different? Modelling how the guns are fired by triggers, is as much a reality-model issue as any plane FM or DM is.

 

* Suggestion: tedious process it may be, but I suggest the developers "rewire" every plane guns and triggers in the game, to their original/historical capacity.

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
triggers and guns..
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2007, 02:31:00 PM »
I totally support this :aok

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
triggers and guns..
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2007, 02:35:51 PM »
IIRC, most planes in WWII with multiple guns and cannons did not have separate TRIGGERS, but what they DID have was a switch board to select which guns to bring into the firing circuit.

In the case of the A-26 B Invader, with up to 14 forward firing .50 call MG's, they had a switch board on the lower left front dash to select with guns were or were not in the firing circuit.

I'm  not sure which planes allowed the pilots to make these choices and which were not among those in the plane set.  

This is a game of WWII aerial combat for online play.  You have to divert from historical accuracy at some point.  I consider this issue in the same context as the combat trim.  A measure to simplify things for add to gameplay for those players that are unaware, unconcerned, or don't want to deal with all the little details.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
triggers and guns..
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2007, 10:42:18 PM »
I wish Skuzzy could move this to the wishlist forums. Didn't really check on which forum I posted this one. But anyhow..

Quote
In the case of the A-26 B Invader, with up to 14 forward firing .50 call MG's, they had a switch board on the lower left front dash to select with guns were or were not in the firing circuit.


 Except we're not talking about an Attack plane. We're talking about fighter aircraft in general, and they had a single gun switch - on and off. Before combat usually a single camera switch and a single gun switch is turned on and you're ready to go. P-51D pilots very specifically mention they weren't able to use only certain sets of guns, always all six would fire at once. I )pretty confidently) assume it was the same for P-47s or other aircraft as well.
 

Quote
This is a game of WWII aerial combat for online play. You have to divert from historical accuracy at some point. I consider this issue in the same context as the combat trim. A measure to simplify things for add to gameplay for those players that are unaware, unconcerned, or don't want to deal with all the little details.


 I don't see the rationale.

 Combat trim is a necessity that fills in for the game pilot the lack of 'feel' a control column would give you in real-time, according to which the pilot trims his plane. With the combat trim the necessity of micro-managing trim is minimized, and keeps the game pilot's attention to the battle at hand, instead of fiddling with trims every second of his flight.

 Automatic flap retraction is a inhibitor tool which prevents game pilots from abusing the flaps at speeds and situations where real fighter pilots would not deploy them, and thus makes sure that flap usage is sufficiently contained during most of the combat duration, barring low speed duels which would warrant its use.

 The automatic WEP shutoff is also an inhibitor tool which mechanically prevents the pilot from overusing his WEP function on whim - in accordance with the fact that real life pilots would generally follow the mandate issued from the factories in concern with engine management during flight.

 All of these such 'unrealistic functions' in effect serve to enhance reality of the game, not deterr it. AH steps away from pure technical reality and emphasizes more on situational reality. These "unrealistic" game functions makes sure that the gamer abides by the real-life rules of thumb which real pilots kept by. But what purpose does the split triggering serve?

 It is neither technically realistic nor situanally realistic. All it does is gives an awkward sort of advantage to some of the planes which should not have been given such. How does this 'simplify' anything? It's totally irrelevant of 'inconvenient details' It's basically straight forward - one trigger fired all guns. That's how it was, that's how it should be. There are no complications, nor does it inconvenience anyone except people who've already grown accustomed to this abnormal advantage.

 Give me just one good reason that can justify splitting armament by independant triggers in planes which should not, in terms of any of the following; technical reality, situational reality, convenience, balance between planes, general gameplay for all players.

 There isn't any. It's just a decision HTC made when they made this game, and a decision which at this point I can't see any reason behind it. It's something which should not have been done at the first place.

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
triggers and guns..
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2007, 11:13:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
IIRC, most planes in WWII with multiple guns and cannons did not have separate TRIGGERS, but what they DID have was a switch board to select which guns to bring into the firing circuit.

In the case of the A-26 B Invader, with up to 14 forward firing .50 call MG's, they had a switch board on the lower left front dash to select with guns were or were not in the firing circuit.

I'm  not sure which planes allowed the pilots to make these choices and which were not among those in the plane set.  

This is a game of WWII aerial combat for online play.  You have to divert from historical accuracy at some point.  I consider this issue in the same context as the combat trim.  A measure to simplify things for add to gameplay for those players that are unaware, unconcerned, or don't want to deal with all the little details.


I can only speak for the Spitfires with cannon. They had a switch that you could push up on to fire just MGs, down to fire just cannon, or push straight in to fire both. This was to conserve cannon when you werent sure of your shot. Also, the Bf-109K-4 had a primary trigger, a secondary trigger, and a tertiaty trigger. The primary, mounted where most joysticks have their trigger mounted, in the pointer-finger position, fired the machine guns. The secondary, fireing the cannon, was mounted in the thumb position, and the tertiary, releasing the bomb or drop tank, was mounted on the lower left side of the stick. Like kweassa said, the aircraft with both MGs and cannon are very likely to have multiple triggers because cannon is like currency. The more you have, the better off you are. Do I need to show you evidence of the exact positioning kweassa? I just happen to have both sitting right here on my desktop. :aok

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
triggers and guns..
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2007, 12:17:03 AM »
I know early P-38's had two triggers--one for the caliber .50 and one for the cannon.  Later in the war, they combined both guns on one trigger.  I'll look through the POH's for the P-47 and 51 to see how the arming switches worked.

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
triggers and guns..
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2007, 02:05:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
We're talking about fighter aircraft in general, and they had a single gun switch - on and off. Before combat usually a single camera switch and a single gun switch is turned on and you're ready to go. P-51D pilots very specifically mention they weren't able to use only certain sets of guns, always all six would fire at once. I )pretty confidently) assume it was the same for P-47s or other aircraft as well.

Give me just one good reason that can justify splitting armament by independant triggers in planes which should not, in terms of any of the following; technical reality, situational reality, convenience, balance between planes, general gameplay for all players.



That's one instance, you give with the Pony.  Serenity lists two others with options in triggers for other planes.  I list a third example that I know of.  Chances are, that many of the planes featured in the game have different ways of firing multiple weapons.  All, selectable firing circuit, multi-function triggers.  There is no one way that covers all.

So, having all guns fire all the time, as you would have, would not be accurate for other planes.

This is probably the simplest way to incorporate firing of guns, selections and dropping or firing other ordnance and drop tanks, within the abilities, limitations, and features found on the majority of joysticks out there with 2 fire button options.  You have to design games with peripherals in mind as well.  There are also incorporating the firing features into vehicles like the PT boat, and bomber formations, where you can fire single, or multiple positions.

Modeling the different firing options for each individual plane is a level of detail that is unnecessary.   Also, what possible problem could there be with the way they have it modeled now?   If you want the primary fire button to fire all guns, set it up that way in Map Controllers.  Simple enough.

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
triggers and guns..
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 02:26:12 AM »
Yeah, just wanna make it perfectly clear, I am not for, nor against, anything here, im just spitting out facts. :aok

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
triggers and guns..
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2007, 07:58:59 AM »
In 109G6 the trigger configuration worked that way that if you had the wing cannons and had them armed the function of thumb button changed so that it fired only the wing cannons, and the fuselage armament (20mm+13mms) was fired with trigger. If the wing cannons were not armed the thumb button fired the fuselage 20mm and the trigger the fuselage 13mms.

At least thats how the manual explains it.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
triggers and guns..
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2007, 07:55:57 PM »
Oooooh! Where can I find this manual? Ill trade you my Bf-109K-4 cockpit layout for it!

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
triggers and guns..
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2007, 08:09:43 PM »
Looking at the P-47N and P-51D POH's, it appears that all guns fired simultaneously.  There was no switch on the gun selector to fire different batteries of guns.  Either Guns, Sight, and Camera were selected, Sight and Camera were selected, or "Off" was selected.  So, it appears, at least for the P-38L, P-47's, and P-51's that all guns should fire simultaneously with no option to fire one bank or the other.  The exception to this would be earlier versions of the P-38 which had two triggers--one for the cannon, and one for the caliber .50.  Interestingly, the P-47N POH says maximum ammunition load was 500 rounds per gun, vice the 425 per gun we have.

Offline mrgrieves

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
triggers and guns..
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2007, 10:44:01 PM »
According to the p-51 maintenance manual, the p-51 contained a b6 hand grip which had a dual position trigger..ie - hold 1/2 way it fires "X", hold all the way down - it fires "y" combination., with "X" and "y" being dependant on how the armament panel was wired.

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
triggers and guns..
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2007, 10:59:29 PM »
About the Fw 190(s)

1.  When 190 is armed with 2x 20mm inboard cannons and 2x cowl guns then...

-The primary trigger is the cowl gun
-The secondary trigger is the inboard 20mm cannons

2.  If 190 is armed with outboard 20mm/30mm cannons then...

-The primary trigger is the cowl gun + inboard cannon
-The secondary trigger is the outboard 20/30mm cannon

?

(i wish crummp's here to answer hard questions on 190s...)

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
triggers and guns..
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 01:45:16 AM »
So it works the same way as in 109. Makes sense actually...


"Oooooh! Where can I find this manual?"

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Manuals.html

-C+
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:50:33 AM by Charge »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
triggers and guns..
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 04:11:53 AM »
F4F had a circuit breaker in which the pilot could select two guns,  four guns, or all 6 guns.