Author Topic: Bomb-crater size?  (Read 2911 times)

Offline Stoney74

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2007, 08:58:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sketch
But like I said, if they are a ground burst, 500lbs of explosives will leave a nice hole.


Maybe I misunderstand what you mean when you say ground burst.  I know if you place a charge in the ground that's 500lbs, it behaves much differently than a 500lb bomb with an instantaneous fuze.  

Anyway, as for WWII craters, here's a picture of Mille airfield (a Japanese field on an island that was bypassed).  Great photo of bomb craters.  Have no idea what size bombs made these, but it comes from the VMB-613 website, and that was a Marine PBJ squadron (B-25's).  Probably a lot of 500 lb bombs as that was a typical load for them.

Picture of a cratered runway

Offline Denholm

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2007, 09:46:14 AM »
Well, if we can't have bigger craters, why not bigger explosion animations? Seriouslly, there is a difference between a 250 lb. bomb and a 4,000 lb. bomb!
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Offline Sketch

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2007, 10:55:36 AM »
Exactly Stoney... I should have made that clear in my first post, and I appologize for that.  That photo you posted up is pretty cool.  WOuld have hated to been on the ground when all those dropped! :O
I am gonna do some checking and see how much explosive filler was used during the WWII era bombs.  But yes we need some better explosions... I always like eye candy!  :aok
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Offline LancerVT

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2007, 11:01:39 AM »
Raider you would need Bruce Willis AND Aerosmith to counter the Texas sized asteroid. You can't save the world without a cheesy/lame pop song as the soundtrack.
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Offline DLfrmHLL

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2007, 02:24:16 PM »
Yes they get bigger when the bombs get bigger

Nice pics, looks to be from the ole white sands test area where
 i used to serve in the USAF  Alamogordo NM.

I think all those WWII bombs were plunger type detonators ?
so ground fused only ?

Bigger plums for the bigger bombs  yes its got my vote.

Offline Sketch

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Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2007, 03:54:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DLfrmHLL
Yes they get bigger when the bombs get bigger

Nice pics, looks to be from the ole white sands test area where
 i used to serve in the USAF  Alamogordo NM.

I think all those WWII bombs were plunger type detonators ?
so ground fused only ?

Bigger plums for the bigger bombs  yes its got my vote.


I think your right on you post.  I know some used the wind-vains (some still do on modern bombs), but they way it goes is when the bomb is dropped the vain needs to spin a certain number of times for the bomb to arm (thus shooting a bomb won't set it off, as so many think), then once it is armed it will go boom.  A good example is in the Pearl Harbor movie.  The bomb that drops through the deck of the Arizona and the guy is pealing potatoes and the vain stops spinning..... close your eyes it won't hurt as bad.  :eek:
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Offline Nemeth

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Re: Re: Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2007, 11:29:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
I've seen 500lb, 1000lb, and 2000lb bomb craters that are much smaller than you would think they should be.  A large portion of the dust you see in the air doesn't actually come out of the ground as much as its made up of dust from the area surrounding the crater in which the blast travels.  I can't remember exactly, but from my memory from a few years ago, a 500lb bomb made a crater approximately 2 to 4 feet around, and approximately 6-12 inches deep.  A 2000 lb bomb made a crater that was approx. 8-10 feet around, and a little over 1 foot deep.  These were unguided bombs delivered from around a 30 degree dive angle, carried by AV8's, F-18's, F-14's, F-16's, and A-10's.  I've not been up close and personal with craters made from bombs dropped from B-52's delivered from a flat profile.


These bombs  that you are talking about are detonated above ground, in WWII they didn't bother doing any testing to see if bombs were more effective if they are detonated above ground or on the ground, they wanted to blow the enemy up, their bombs usually hit the the ground with a vengance
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 11:32:12 PM by Nemeth »

Offline Stoney74

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Re: Re: Re: Bomb-crater size?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2007, 01:08:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nemeth
These bombs  that you are talking about are detonated above ground, in WWII they didn't bother doing any testing to see if bombs were more effective if they are detonated above ground or on the ground, they wanted to blow the enemy up, their bombs usually hit the the ground with a vengance


OK, I know what you're trying to say here, but I feel I need to point out that an instantaneous fuze is NOT the same as what has been described as an "air burst".  An "air burst" fuze uses a radio signal to detonate at a certain height above ground, and in current parlance, is called variable time or VT.  As far as I know, there are no VT fuzes for air delivered ordnance--its only an artillery or mortar fuze.  An instantaneous fuze actually hits the ground--that's what sets it off--the impact.  The key is that the fuze detonates and the explosive filler of the bomb has an extremely short burn that causes an explosion.  During Vietnam, they actually put the fuze on a rod that screwed into the bomb to ensure that it detonated above ground, as the fuze contacting the ground starts the chemical reaction that goes "boom".  However, an instaneous fuze is screwed into the nose of the bomb and initiates the reaction upon contact with the ground.  The reaction is so quick, that most of the explosive force exists above the deck, which keeps most of the blast and frag effects above ground, and hence, makes a small crater.  During WWII, there were many experiments with bomb delivery, although mostly in the field as opposed to the clinical type testing shown in Sketch's first photo.  These tests were conducted to determine how to maximize the effectiveness of fragmentation bombs by using different delivery techniques.  Again, I don't know what types of fuzes they used in WWII, but I do know they had delay fuzes and whatever they considered the "normal" fuzes.  Mostly they used delay fuzes to achieve low altitude, high-speed delivery so that the delivering aircraft could escape the blast and fragmentation effects of the bombs.  Today, the principles are the same, although without a doubt, the technology is advanced.  My point was to show that an "instantaneous" fuze used today on the U.S. inventory of conventionally delivered munitions make small craters compared to what you see when they detonate, even though the fuze actually makes contact with the ground before the bomb detonates.  These craters are much smaller than what you would think.  How they compare to WWII fuzing, I have no idea but if they worked along the same principles, there may not be as much of a crater as you would think.  When I say I've seen many deliveries of current munitions, I'm speaking on order of hundreds to low thousands, and feel extremely confident in my presentation so far.  I even spoke with an engineer that worked for the RAND Corporation about the development of the JDAM guidance kits (he was my roommates brother and a chemical engineer) and again, make these statements with some confidence.  I know when you witness the detonation and see the dust and debris kicked up by these detonations, it is intuitive to think the crater would be large, but I'm telling you, they are not, unless fuzed to explode after they have contacted the ground, and penetrated the ground to some depth.

EDIT:  Looked on FAS.org and there is an airburst fuze for the Mk80 series of bombs.  Neither airbust nor delay fuzes were authorized for indirect fire (artillery or mortars) or air delivered ordnance where I worked, so none of the craters I saw were either air burst, or delay.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 01:22:04 AM by Stoney74 »