Author Topic: Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?  (Read 853 times)

Offline john9001

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2007, 10:06:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
In other words, there was never a chance the U.S. could succeed in its ultimate goal for Iraq  


there you go again with the negative thoughts.

Offline AquaShrimp

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2007, 10:41:04 AM »
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the attempt to install an America-friendly, western-style democracy in Iraq was a fool's errand.


But it worked so well in South East Asia forty years ago...

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2007, 12:12:41 PM »
We need a new strategy.

Think happy thoughts.

Yeah, that'll do it.
sand

Offline Mini D

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2007, 12:27:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Then it sounds to me like you are saying that the attempt to install an America-friendly, western-style democracy in Iraq was a fool's errand.

In other words, there was never a chance the U.S. could succeed in its ultimate goal for Iraq (related goals notwithstanding, like the removal of Hussein and the finding/incapacitation of WMDs)?
It's ultimate goal was achieved. This is where the misconception seems to be coming in.

The "installing an American-friendly, western-style democracy" was not even in the top 10 until things started winding down.

The generals that say it was foolish to go in without an exit strategy would have been happy if the exit strategy were: Go in, kill saddam, leave. They aren't politicians.

All of this talk about intimidation and fearing bush to get a 100% vote on the Iraqi war is a bunch of crap. There was no downside for the Democrats. Absolutely none. They had convenient excuses and a convenient scapegoat. It's been in their best interest to undermine and identify everything as a short-coming since the war started. It will continue to be that way until a Dem is in the whitehouse. Then they will fail miserably and blame the previous occupant and accuse the republicans of trying to undermine all of their efforts to make real solutions (because that's what the republicans will be doing). The desire to undermine in order to make the other party look worse has become more popular than making your own party look better.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2007, 01:13:25 PM »
Sorry, what ultimate goal has been achieved?   And if the ultimate goal has been achieved, why are our soldiers still fighting in Iraq?

Please be as forthcoming and specific as possible - I'm not trying to "trap" you - I'm looking for common ground.

Getting pretty sick of the political posturing on both sides myself.  Should be used to it by now though, its always been that way and will probably never change.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2007, 02:02:57 PM »
Oboe, it hasn't always been that way.  The bitterness that divides us as a people and keeps our two major parties at each others' throats has been growing like a cancer for some time now.

It began to grow more bitter during the Clinton administration as a direct result of the impeachment proceedings.  Whether or not one believes that the attempted removal of that controversial president was justified or not, one cannot deny that it opened a permanent rift between Republicans and Democrats.  

That rift grew wider, and relations between the two parties more acrimonious, during the presidential election of 2000.  It would have been better if one or the other of the two candidates involved in the vitriolic recount controversy in Florida had followed the example of Richard Nixon, who refused to drag the country through a divisive recount in the election of 1960, and simply stepped down.   Gracefully.   Al Gore will go down in history as the only presidential candidate in U.S. history to ever retract a concession.

His refusal to concede is emblematic of the widening rift mentioned above.  NEITHER side was willing to yield, preferring to drag the country through a bloody legal battle instead....regardless of the implications.  As a result, during the last 6 years we have seen the voting population of our country becoming increasingly Balkanized.

That Balkanization continues to grow, despite the relatively brief period of patriotism that blazed out after 9/11.  The nation hasn't been this divided since 1969.  The divisive "spirit of party" that Washington warned the nation of in his farewell address has come to full fruition.

We see evidence of it right here on these boards.  Neither side feels it can concede a point.  Members of the opposition are demonized and their every motive suspect.

We refuse to learn from our mistakes.  If we are to succeed on the international stage we, as a people, need to be single-minded in purpose.    We haven't BEEN that for some considerable time now.  We would rather cut our own throats than those of the enemy.

The Iraqi "insurgents" know this.  They've known it all along.  It's no secret.  They know the modern history of America and its military endeavors at least as well as we do.  

They know us.  Having read and studied our history THEY have learned from our mistakes.  These muslim fanatics are smarter than we are.  They've known from the very beginning that they didn't have to beat our military.

All they had to do to win was beat US...the civilian population.  It was easy to do, because we were already sniping at each other even before Saddam's statue fell in Baghdad.  By refusing to give up, by giving our media enough fodder to "shock" the American populace with how bad the war was going, they knew we would implode.

They were right.  We have beaten ourselves.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:06:49 PM by Shuckins »

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2007, 02:13:10 PM »
Bull**** Shuckins.  The country has ALWAYS been divided.  It is foolish and childish to think otherwise or to think we were ever "one people."


Every single thing that ever happened in our entire history has divided us.
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Offline T0J0

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2007, 02:44:07 PM »
A Dem victory can only be achieved with a defeat... Political ammo for the next generation is the defeat in Iraq which will be echoed every election in the next 20 years, "remember when the republicans lost the war in Iraq" Forget the fact it will be orchestrated by Democrats...
 It is unpatriotic to cheer and vote on defeat...
The same group who will cheer on Hiillaries call for socialised medicine as our great savior without explaining that the side goal is free health care for illegal aliens on my %70 tax rate...
Enjoy the current times because right now is the lowest tax rates you will ever see in your lifetime and maybe your kids... We hope I am wrong!

Offline Shuckins

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2007, 02:57:30 PM »
BS yourself.

I never said we were EVER completely unified.  We've had our divisive arguments in the past, which is true of the populations of every nation that has ever existed.

Either you didn't get my point, or you wilfully misconstrued it.

It is my contention that our divisions are becoming progressively worse.

There's certainly plenty of evidence to support that statement.

It is also my belief that this is atypical.  There have been plenty of periods in our history when, in many things, we were of one mind.  Franklin Roosevelt, after the watershed election that placed him in control of the government, employed both Democrats AND Republicans in the construction of the New Deal.  That same cooperation was also evident during the Second World War.

There was a considerable spirit of cooperation and respect during Eisenhower's administration....as well as that of Kennedy.  Much of Johnson's Great Society legislation was passed with Republican support.

I've been a citizen of the United States for 53 years and I can honestly say that I have seldom seen the people of the country more divided than they are today.  The blame can be shared by both Republicans and Democrats, and can also be said to result from our tendency to want instant results, which keeps us from being to stick to stick to our guns in any protracted conflict.

Also, to a great extent, the conflict between Americans is not so much a political one as it is cultural in nature;  conservative/rural versus liberal/urban.  The split between the two is wide and continues to grow.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:59:45 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2007, 02:58:26 PM »
Shuckins,

I tend to agree with your premise but feel you didn't go back far enough. The vitriol started hot and heavy during the Nixon years when somehow he gets blamed for the war started years earlier by lbj. Nice bit of blame shifting down there. He did enough stuff on his own to be criticized for but Nam wasn't one of them. From there it went even farther down hill. IMO it was a case of the best defense is a good offense and the dem's went offensive big time. It was a great way to shift blame for the, up til then, most divisive conflict in our history.

Using clinton later on was a big chance for pay back. It's still tit for tat hammer and tongs right now.
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Offline x0847Marine

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Dems want a do-over? Excuse Me?
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2007, 03:04:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Then it sounds to me like you are saying that the attempt to install an America-friendly, western-style democracy in Iraq was a fool's errand.

In other words, there was never a chance the U.S. could succeed in its ultimate goal for Iraq (related goals notwithstanding, like the removal of Hussein and the finding/incapacitation of WMDs)?


It worked real great with the Shaw of Iran, we all remember what a huge success that was.

When the repub / dem idiots talk to us Americans about western democracy in Iraq.. what could sound better?, to us anyway, we're arrogant enough to think the whole world desires to be "free" like us. This does not apply to the tribal hyper religious mid east.

The war has become a political football for the DC crime families to kick around while they accomplish the only thing they are actually good at; bickering like useless children. They have party agendas to push forward, never-mind whats good for the country.

We NEED a handful of Independents and Libertariens in congress to play referee and add new ideas / voices to the debate... repubs & dems have demonstrated quite clearly they cant play nice when left alone, and fail when left in power.