Author Topic: Precient Wartime Assessment  (Read 665 times)

Offline Hap

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Precient Wartime Assessment
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 12:31:47 PM »
We do get myopic.  America, let's see 1781 to 1861 is 80 years ignoring the War of 1812.  1864 to the present is 143 years.  Prior to and after the Civil War.  

143 years seems like a lot.  I visited Prague several years ago . . . Paris before that.  1066 and all that jazz.  That is those Capitol cities put our young Republic in perspective.

Still, 143 years seems like a fairly long period of time.

Though Iceland truly wins the day.  A nation that can hang together for 1000 years + without breaking down into disabling acrimony and mayhem gets a WTG  :aok

All the Best,

hap

Offline Torque

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 12:50:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
You are right Viking; I'm sorry I overstated that.   I should have phrased it "one of the most important contributions to systems of government in history."

And not to take credit for the ideas of democracy or republic, but only for our implementation of them, which has been fairly stable and successful for quite of number of years now.


the implementation was nothing new either oboe.

the iroquois' 'great law of peace' which had served their democracy was in place hundreds of years before the american declaration of independence and the constitution, it also was far more democratic than either document.

franklin and jefferson just copied the iroquois' form of govt that has existed since the 1500's.

this issue of the forgotten fathers is shunned, as it doesn't play out well in history books. i mean the indians were savages in need concentration camps and ethinic cleansing.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 01:11:17 PM »
By our implementation, I meant the 3-branch structure - Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.  

But props to both Iceland and the Iroquois.    I'm embarrassed I didn't know about the democracy connection to either.     In any case it seems to me the writer's "Age of Ideology" should have begun before 1789.

Offline Hawco

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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2007, 02:06:05 PM »
Guys,Only the President has the power to set the agenda for a national public debate, a fact that's often pointed out. Since he announced a surge in troops for Iraq, Bush has met such widespread opposition that he gave up much of that power. The debate has shifted to his opponents, both Democratic and Republican, who are vying to see who can point fingers hardest and scold loudest.

For the most part this seems like a political masquerade. If, as so many assert, the current surge is futile, if Bush has relinquished any real leadership, what are we to do? Radically shifting Iraq policy seems to be the last topic anyone wants to agree upon. The relevant facts are too hard:

--The *****es are going to rule Iraq, silently controlled by religious leaders. This is how Iran is run, and Iraq shows no signs of being any different.
--The Sunnis will continue to pay in blood for the Baathists brutal repression of the Shia majority.
--The moderate wing in Iraqi politics, which must exist somewhere, has been rendered helpless by violence and chaos all around.
--The psychological mood in Iraq has reached the point of irrationality. No one wants peace enough to stop killing their tribal enemies and squaring old grudges. Even the promise of vast oil wealth offers no incentive to form a national coalition. The factions would rather perish in hatred than live in prosperity.

In the face of these intractable realities, a surge in American troops is beside the point, be it a failure or a success (however feebly one defines the latter term). Patriotic hand-wringing over American fatalities is also largely beside the point.
Yet the war's dissenters keep harping on irrelevancies. Body armor and the lack thereof; wasted money and painful slowness in reconstruction; lost and unaccounted for weapons.  In a war that costs billions of  dollars a month, with rising danger of a conflagration spreading throughout the region, talking about such losses is a bit like arguing over whether the Titanic went over budget.

Caught between a surge and a hard place, Washington's political leaders on both sides of the aisle feel paralyzed. They prefer squabbling and self-righteous blame to the incredibly hard job of solving this catastrophic mess. If they can't think of a solution, then simply cutting our losses and leaving the scene may be the only answer. A deeper catastrophe will result, no doubt, but as long as we keep stirring a boiling pot, deeper catastrophe is just as surely guaranteed.

In asnwer to the question  I posed : "When you see a flag at the top of a pole fluttering, is the flag moving itself, or is it the wind making the flag move?"
The Answer- none of them , the only thing moving is our own conscience
Just like Iraq
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 02:09:13 PM by Hawco »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 02:58:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
In any case it seems to me the writer's "Age of Ideology" should have begun before 1789.


If Democracy is the benchmark it should have begun with the Greek 2500 years ago.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 03:22:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
143 years seems like a lot.  I visited Prague several years ago . . . Paris before that.  1066 and all that jazz.  That is those Capitol cities put our young Republic in perspective.
 


Yes, but remember that unless your forefathers immigrated from another part of the world, those old Capitol cities are part of your history as well. :)

Offline Torque

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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 03:25:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
By our implementation, I meant the 3-branch structure - Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.  

But props to both Iceland and the Iroquois.    I'm embarrassed I didn't know about the democracy connection to either.     In any case it seems to me the writer's "Age of Ideology" should have begun before 1789.


yet again oboe, the iroquois confederacy had the three branch structure system.

to show the extent of emulation even the 'great seal' with the eagle clutching arrows was taken from the iroquois confederacy, originally it had six to represent the six nations within the confederacy, they just added  seven more.

it's an interesting part in history, the influence the iroquois had not only in america but in europe as well.

the forgotten founding fathers to say the least...