Author Topic: Fuel burn rates  (Read 946 times)

Offline Krusty

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2007, 12:26:51 PM »
HTC has compressed horizontal distances with increased fuel burn. As a result bases can be closer to each other.

However HTC cannot compress the vertical distances. It's just not possible without changing the FM or density of the very air itself.

This means that an aircraft flying level gets 1/2 as far on 2x fuel burn, but an aircraft climbing to 20k uses 3-4x as much gas to get to the same alt as it normally would have.


There's no way to fix this, and I wouldn't say it's intentional, but it means that aircraft that climb faster (get to alt faster) use less gas getting up there, and benefit from it more so than slow-climbers. Because they can level off and reduce RPM faster.

That's what he means. Just a byproduct of the game.

Offline hubsonfire

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2007, 12:28:32 PM »
To think all this time, I've just been taking the fuel I need, and not freaking out about the other guy's loadout, since I cannot possibly know what it is.
mook
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Offline Airscrew

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2007, 01:11:11 PM »
but thats too easy :cool:

Offline Ghastly

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2007, 01:15:35 PM »
Quite simple.

The faster an aircraft climbs, the less of it's fuel store it chews through to get to engagement altitude because the less time it spends at a high power setting getting there relative to a slower climbing aircraft, and the more of an advantage it's rate of climb becomes against slower climbing opponents. Opponents who as the modifier increases have had to commit more fuel to climbing to the engagement altitude to begin with, and may well not have enough left after climbing to engage - or the fuel to get home after they've climbed to alt and then engaged.  

And who have to take an increasingly heavier relative fuel load compared to the faster climbing aircraft to begin with, which amplifies the advantage non-linearly - the same way that millions of pounds of fuel are required to put a few 10's of thousands of lbs into orbit.

The same issue applies to cruise speed with respect to the linear distance, although the range of variability isn't as large as the variance in the rates of climb and so the relative factoring is less of an issue.

But with respect to your assertion that using drop tanks to manage your fuel state is "gaming the game", to my mind that's "horse puckey". The point of a drop tank was to get the RANGE required to perform your assigned mission.  Yes, having a drop tank available may be an advantage of one airframe over another that doesn't - but so is having rockets, or bomb loadouts, or a better rate of climb, or a better guns package in the first place.

So unless you mean that getting to choose your fuel loadout to begin with - along with maps that aren't to scale, the associated fuel modifers to compensate for scale, and airfields always an average of 12 -15 miles from "the front lines" - is altogether gamey too, then I have to disagree with you.

Frankly, it appears to me that you are focusing on a single element that (I suspect) probably appears to you to be a disadvantage to a particular airframe, and concentrating on it all out of the context of the rest of the "hokey" environment and calling "foul".  

At least the fuel loads in AH are in set increments of 25%, so that you don't get what we used to call "the 7% intercepters" elsewhere.

If the modifier were at 1.0 on a to-scale map, and every aircraft had to lift with a fuel state consistent with a historical mission start (which in most cases is 100% to begin with) then I'd agree with you.  But until then, the whole thing is so hokey to begin with that worrying about how a person uses drop tanks seems to be nitpicking a tree without seeing the forest.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 01:18:27 PM by Ghastly »
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Offline Ghastly

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 01:17:15 PM »
P.S. Krusty said it better!

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Offline BaldEagl

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2007, 04:22:07 PM »
OK, so it is true then.  It isn't my imagination.  It is all part of the master plan to force nothing but furballs.

On the big maps was the fuel modifyer at 1 then?

I think they need to reduce it to at least 1.5 so I could just go back to a full tank without worrying about drop tanks (I almost got hit when my squaddie dropped tanks in front of me last night... cool effect but if it would have caused damage I'd have been upset) but then again I might go flying around looking for a fight other than in the now mandatory furballs.
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Offline Kweassa

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2007, 05:11:35 PM »
Quote
But with respect to your assertion that using drop tanks to manage your fuel state is "gaming the game", to my mind that's "horse puckey".


 I wouldn't expect any different reaction from someone who already heavily benefits from what is essentially a GAME EXPLOIT. or perhaps rather a REALISM BREAKER.



Quote
The point of a drop tank was to get the RANGE required to perform your assigned mission. Yes, having a drop tank available may be an advantage of one airframe over another that doesn't - but so is having rockets, or bomb loadouts, or a better rate of climb, or a better guns package in the first place.


 No, the point of a drop tank was to get the rane required to perfrom your assigned mission WHEN THE INTERNAL FUEL LOAD WAS NOT ENOUGH. [/i].

 Don't try to blur the points being made. Nobody is claiming having a DT itself is an unfair advantage. What is being claimed is that using the DTs with an internal fuel load of less than 100% is technically something that falls into the category of abuse, which its sole purpose is to substitue a significant amount of internal fuel load so it can be arbitrarily removed from the plane's weight in an instant, to gain an advantage that would hardly ever be presented were it in real life.



Quote
So unless you mean that getting to choose your fuel loadout to begin with - along with maps that aren't to scale, the associated fuel modifers to compensate for scale, and airfields always an average of 12 -15 miles from "the front lines" - is altogether gamey too, then I have to disagree with you.


 Totally irrelevant. The point being made is about problematic attitudes in choosing a plane configurations due to a glaring oversight by which certain planes are given unexpected advantages in their performace. The advantages and disadvantages concerning the scale and distance of the map apply to all planes equally, whereas the problem at hand of funky fuel configurations apply to a selective group of planes. The former cannot be corrected, the latter can.


Quote
Frankly, it appears to me that you are focusing on a single element that (I suspect) probably appears to you to be a disadvantage to a particular airframe, and concentrating on it all out of the context of the rest of the "hokey" environment and calling "foul".

At least the fuel loads in AH are in set increments of 25%, so that you don't get what we used to call "the 7% intercepters" elsewhere.


 It doesn't "appear" to be a disadvanatge to some planes.
 It "IS" an actual disadvantage to some planes.


Quote
If the modifier were at 1.0 on a to-scale map, and every aircraft had to lift with a fuel state consistent with a historical mission start (which in most cases is 100% to begin with) then I'd agree with you. But until then, the whole thing is so hokey to begin with that worrying about how a person uses drop tanks seems to be nitpicking a tree without seeing the forest.


 Nice try, except there is no "forest" in this case.

 All the "hokeyness" of the map scale, has actually nothing to do with the points being made and once again it is totally irrelevant to what is being presented here. Basically you are saying the map scale and fuel burn in the game is a fantasy, so it should mean any kind of fantasy fuel setting can be permitted as well;;  Sorry, I don't by that argument.

 The point is simple and very clear.  

 Droptanks in the game are not used as supplementary ordnance to truly increase flight time and range (as they are intended to be). They are being used as substitutes for a significant proportion of the internal fuel load that can be immediately removed on whim, for pure combat purposes.

 Thus, your claims that the DTs are being used as intended,and there is nothing wrong with it, is false.

 People who uses "50% fuel + DT" configuration does not slap on the DTs because they actually feel they need the DTs for extra range. The small scale of the MA map gurantees that 100% internal is more than enough for the planes with large internal fuel loads in most cases.

 Instead, the people who uses such configurations, uses them as an alternative to the  "100% fuel" setting for the sole purpose of combat, since with this setting the weight disadvantage of the heavy planes can be eliminated instantly for purpose of combat.

 A P-51D with 50% + DT roughly flies as long as a P-51D at 100% internal. Both configurations have about the same flying time. However, the former is a greatly more favored configuration in the MA because unlike the latter, the former has a significant weight advantage when the DTs are dropped upon combat. This is what I am saying is bullshi*. Such a configuration was never used in real life, since it logically doesn't make sense. The only reason it is used in AH is because it is allowed to.

 It shouldn't be allowed, and this has got nothing to do with the scale of the map.

Offline Krusty

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2007, 05:19:11 PM »
Whoa, all the hostility!

If you're going to argue fine details like that, you shouldn't allow aircraft ANY control over their gas levels on takeoff. NO matter what the plane. P47Ns would go unused, due to the 1000+lbs of fuel they carry onboard. Bombers would almost never clear the runway, hitting the trees at the far end (ever try 100% in a B17 with 6000lbs of ord?).

Frankly, this is first and formost a GAME. If you know the nearest enemy field is only 10 minutes away, you KNOW that you only want a 10-15 minute fight, then maybe want 5 minutes to RTB. You KNOW you only have 20-30 minutes to fly and that's about how long your sortie will be, you're going to tailor your fuel levels to that amount.

People could take 25% + DT in a P47D11 and make it a wickedly light turn fighter, sure... But you know how much 25% is? That's 7 minutes or less. Not counting WEP. So they see the enemy, drop their DT... and... what? Blow EVERYTHING for a single fight? After 1 engagement they drift down to the deck to ditch, fuel gone?

Frankly it's Darwinism at work. Let the morons do this. It won't help them against anybody that wants to kill them. Hell it will only help in a small area: turn capability.

And we all know turning ain't everything.

Offline hubsonfire

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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2007, 06:17:40 PM »
Mark your calendars, gents; Krusty appears to be 100% correct!
mook
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Offline Ghastly

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2007, 08:52:10 PM »
I guess I just don't feel that this particular issue is any where near the kind of a "realism breaker" that you feel it is, given the other obvious concessions to realism with respect to fuel usage in arena play (1/2 scale maps, fuel use modifiers, rediculously short flight distances, and the fact that each player chooses his fuel load to begin with, etc).

If someone were to stage a historical event where the goal was realism and were going to allow players to choose less than a full fuel load with drop tanks, I'd be right there objecting to it with you, just as I'd object to letting intercepters launch with only 25%, or enabling in-flight radar, or external views.  

But in the main arena, no. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this, and just as obviously, we're not going to.

(If it eases your mind at all, I almost never launch with DT's at less than 100% unless it's squad night and that's what flight lead calls for.  And not because I feel it's "an exploit", but because I prefer to avoid the loss in performance that the extra drag that's modeled from the shackles (even after you drop the tank, and rightly so) causes, and the further reduction in climb rate as a result of the drag from the tank itself while you are carrying it. )

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Offline RAIDER14

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Fuel burn rates
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2007, 11:46:34 PM »
If you flat at 30k will you burn less fuel than at 5k is that modeled in game?:confused:

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2007, 12:03:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Mark your calendars, gents; Krusty appears to be 100% correct!

Calendar so marked :aok

as for this discussion I'll add my 2 cents

for me it depends on the plane and what I'm doing.  
109F 75% and drop tank, gives me about 30-35 minutes I think, normally used to chase bombers and rapid response for VH defense.   I usually I can throttle back for extra loiter time near a VH in case they're coming back.

A6M - always 50% and drop tank. gives me about 30 minutes (i think)  after take off if I dont need the drop tank I lose it.  Begin considering 25% and drop tanks cause I dont usually last more than 10-15 minutes anyway.

Spit V, 75% and oops no drop tank, about 30 minutes, more if you play with the throttle and prop rpms.  I'm confused on the drop tank for the Spit V cause repro manual I have says Spit V could use drop tank or 500lb bomb.

Hurri2C - depends, if I got a long distance, 75% and drop tanks, otherwise 50%

Ki84 - same, drop tank and 50% - 75% depends on distance