Author Topic: Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker  (Read 2873 times)

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2007, 08:08:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
The C.205 at 15K will clip along at 400 true ground speed without WEP.  Maybe not the fastest plane in the set but better than most.



Hrm... really? Because it only does about 360 in this game. Even WITH wep it barely hits 380.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=c205&p2=p51d&p3=p38l&p4=p47d11

It does climb like a lesser 109, though.

EDIT: BAH! Widewing beat me to it... d'oh!

Offline Gianlupo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5154
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2007, 04:38:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty

Of the two, I say gunnery is useless without ACM. That means all you'd do is HO, extend, turn, HO, extend. We see enough of this in the dweeby newbies.

You need a small amount of gunnery. Even BAD shots can still get kills. You just need to get in close. To do that requires more ACM than gunnery. If you get a shot and blow it, the way you get a SECOND shot is to reposition. To do that you need to know how to fly your aircraft.

So gunnery does nothing if you can't fly worth a crap.


Krusty, you're not taking time into account: the more time you spend in killing your target, the more you expose yourself to other pilots.. if you can kill your target in 1 or 2 pass, you'll be the god of dogfighting, you'll be able to keep your E and initiative, while you'll lose both of them if you keep maneuvering behind your target for too long time. I'm not saying that ACM is not important, I believe it's of the utmost importance, but, without an adequate gunnery, it's nothing... I think Oleg and Bronk nailed it right, I totally agree with what they wrote.

Quote
Amazing how some need to get into arguments over a subject NOT EVEN RELEVANT to the thread.


Karaya, before HTC pwnd it, my signature said "Top BBS thread hijacker"... I'm just keeping in exercise! :D And, btw, I'll be a lawyer, too, soon, very soon... :noid
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 04:45:15 AM by Gianlupo »
Live to fly, fly to live!

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2007, 08:58:21 AM »
Benny,

I have to disagree about the P-38L.  It is a massively easy fighter to get kills in, in my experience.  P-38 drivers such as yourself like to talk it up as hard, but it is really easy.

as to the Bf110, well, in all the Mossie flying I did I never lost a fight to one and I killed a lot of them, the most humerous being a kill of one after I was out of 20mm ammo.  Therefor, if the Mossie shouldn't be on my list (and it most definately shouldn't be) then the Bf110 shouldn't be on it either.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2007, 11:22:08 PM »
... Not for a new flier.  A new flier can do reasonably well in a Spitfire, but put him in a 38 and I guarantee you some entertainment (if you're the sadistic sort who likes to see airplanes crash).  Again, it's not one of the superhards like the P-47, but it's far from a Spitfire or Ki-84.  The 38's about as difficult to fight in as an Me-109.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2007, 12:17:07 AM »
In my experience the P-38 was right up there with the Spitfire for ease of use, hampered only by poor pilot views and being a larger target.  It isn't anywhere near the Bf109 in difficulty.

The most kills I have ever landed was 12 in an A6M5 (don't ask, I don't know) followed by 8 in each of the P-38L, Typhoon Mk Ib, N1K2-J and Mosquito Mk VI.  I hardly ever fly the P-38, N1K2-J or Typhoon whereas I have thousands of kills in the Mosquito.

The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7.  It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2007, 12:51:08 AM »
So how many of them 12 were proxies...? ;)

38 was one of the few planes I stepped out of my Hog for to try out a bit a couple tours back. Very stable, climbs well, good guns package and location. Views as mentioned rather poor, especially trying to look down out either side. She turns well, but IMO you can really feel the weight, and even in the L your rate of roll is average at best even coordinated with rudder (38 has two rudders, but it's a lot of airplane to move and they're not that big). Her size allows her to soak up more damage, but while I can lose half a wing in a Hog and know I can get her home (even if I'm in a spin, so long as I've got a few thousand feet of alt to get her stabilized and can get my flaps out a notch or two) generally if you've lost part of a wing in a 38 you've ALSO either lost or suffered engine damage on that side as well, and that thrust differential makes her almost impossible to control with one engine and one wing shot off. That said, differential thrust can be used to advantage to help swing through a turn. However doing this can keep you pretty busy even if you have a dual throttle (just try it with a single throttle!)

Diving in a 38, even with the dive flaps, is a dicey prospect. Even at reduced power she can accelerate to speeds where elevator authority is close to non-existent.

She IS big, but I find her deceptively large as if you don't give a 38 enough lead your fire will harmlessly be sucked into that black hole between the booms.

However, I just want to say: Gull wings > twin booms. :D
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2007, 12:56:10 AM »
Heh.  None were proxies.  I was just nailing my shots.  I am still dumbfounded when I think back on that fight.  For that one flight I was the A6M from hell.

Sadly I didn't record it.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2007, 01:27:41 AM »
On the Star of Africa snapshot I was in a 38G. It happens I had my port wingtip shot off... As I'm trying to level out (is very hard) I'm being shot up by 2-3 FW190s. One of them shoots out my starboard engine!


It was perfect! Thanks to that I was able to effortlessly (well, almost) trim it out and control it all the way down for a safe landing.

Often I'll lose something in a 38 that doesn't include engine, and other times I'll lose engine but nothing else. You don't always lose wingtip and engine or parts and same engine. It's a crapshoot.

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2007, 01:37:41 AM »
OT

Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
We had an EXTENSIVE discussion about the F4U's flaps not long ago. F4UDOA posted data that shows the Hog's flaps generate an INSANE amount of lift.

Power on, the Corsair's flaps generated nearly the same amount of lift (calculated by % reduction of stall speed) at only one or two notches as the P-51B received at FULL flaps.

No one really seemed to be able to answer WHY the F4U benefited from significantly greater lift with flaps deployed in comparison to other aircraft, (I still wonder if it was in any way connected with the gull wing design) but I think Widewing indicated that performance is EXACTLY how our Corsair is modeled. What's NOT modeled correctly is the Hog's wicked low-speed stall.


Hi,

the calculation is in %, now some could assume that the flaps was that good, but we also could assume that the wing without flaps was bad regarding its lift and actually thats what i think is the point(the very smal aspectratio is a hint to this).
1.Bad wing(regarding lift and stallspeed) + normal flaps = big lift win in %
2.Good wing + normal flaps = smaler gain in %
3.Very good wing + normal flaps = even smaler gain in % (Ta152H)
4.Very good wing + fowler flaps = similar gain like 2. in % (P38G,H,J,L).

Another thing is: At what speed this lift gain was usable, for what price(drag) and what behaviour the plane did show with full flaps(nose down)?
Flaps, and specialy full flaps wasnt made to manouver better, like its in AH now, also not in the P38.
But as i found out while a other discussion, almost all planes in AH behave in this way now, with the different that the F4U flaps are usable at much higher speed, than in most other planes.

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2007, 07:07:33 AM »
Actually, I thought I saw somewhere our F4U's flaps aren't available until about 50mph SLOWER than per the manual (first notch kicks in at 250 in the game, thought I read the real bird could drop them at 300. Also I remember from another discussion, the real F4U could drop the flap lever a notch so that when airspeed decreased to the point flaps could deploy they would do so automatically, and blow back up again as speed increased). The aircraft's manual even indicates that the flaps can be used for maneuvering.

Here's the chart posted by F4UDOA showing the F4U's stall speeds:



As a point of comparison, per DOA the P-51B power off full flaps has an improvement of 7% in its stall speed. Power off stall without flaps is 101mph, full flaps 94mph. The Hog achieves this difference--at lower ACTUAL speeds, with two notches of flaps.

F4U stall speed power off no flaps is 94mph, 86mph power off full flaps. Power on, the differences in the Corsair's stall speed with and without flaps is even MORE significant.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 07:16:50 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9505
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2007, 07:16:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7.  It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.

I disagree.  For people like me, with just basic skills, learning how to use the 38's flaps is not intuitive and takes awhile to master.  The plane, especially the G version, has some very ugly stall qualities.  Plus, it's a huge target.  While it's certainly one of the best knife fighters once mastered, I think it takes awhile to master - certainly at least as long as the G6.

- oldman

Offline Hoarach

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2406
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2007, 07:24:26 AM »
What I see is if the P38 is so easy to fly than why do 95% of the pilots that fly it totally suck in it.  Too many pilots use it just for toolshedding and BnZ.  Most dont know how to dogfight in the P38 or own a spitfire in a 1v1.  The P38 can be an easy plane but too many are oblivious to what it can actually do.
Fringe
Nose Art
80th FS "Headhunters"

Secret Association of P38 Pilots

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2007, 09:35:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
In my experience the P-38 was right up there with the Spitfire for ease of use, hampered only by poor pilot views and being a larger target.  It isn't anywhere near the Bf109 in difficulty.

The most kills I have ever landed was 12 in an A6M5 (don't ask, I don't know) followed by 8 in each of the P-38L, Typhoon Mk Ib, N1K2-J and Mosquito Mk VI.  I hardly ever fly the P-38, N1K2-J or Typhoon whereas I have thousands of kills in the Mosquito.

The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7.  It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.



Going from the Mossi, with its buggered up FM and being proficient with it.
Just bout every ac is going to feel easy, wouldn't it?
The 109 is just as easy to get kills in once you acclimate yourself to its quirks.

Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2007, 09:37:37 AM »
I took a P-38G up for a whirl last night.  I think it was only my second time in that plane and I've only flown P-38's in general a handful of times.  I got 2 quick kills in a largely outnumbered area against a number of other types of aircraft (P-38's, LA's, 190's, etc.), finally lost the starboard engine, exited and flew home safely.  Seemed pretty easy-mode to me.

On the other hand, flying anything else I always look forward to fighting P-38's because, in general, they are easy kills.

Go figure.

BTW, I liked and was impressed with the 38G's abilities.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Very powerful fighters without the dweeb moniker
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2007, 01:45:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Actually, I thought I saw somewhere our F4U's flaps aren't available until about 50mph SLOWER than per the manual (first notch kicks in at 250 in the game, thought I read the real bird could drop them at 300. Also I remember from another discussion, the real F4U could drop the flap lever a notch so that when airspeed decreased to the point flaps could deploy they would do so automatically, and blow back up again as speed increased). The aircraft's manual even indicates that the flaps can be used for maneuvering.

Here's the chart posted by F4UDOA showing the F4U's stall speeds:



As a point of comparison, per DOA the P-51B power off full flaps has an improvement of 7% in its stall speed. Power off stall without flaps is 101mph, full flaps 94mph. The Hog achieves this difference--at lower ACTUAL speeds, with two notches of flaps.

F4U stall speed power off no flaps is 94mph, 86mph power off full flaps. Power on, the differences in the Corsair's stall speed with and without flaps is even MORE significant.


Hi,

many planes could use their flaps at higher speeds, i talk about the relations here. I wrote that the F4U can use them "much more early" than others, not "to early".

Also regarding the stallspeed and lift behaviour i talk about relations. Although the F4U have a lower stallspeed, the lift efficiency can be rather bad. The stall speed is, next to other factors, related to max liftload and the liftload get infuenced by the wingarea and the F4U is more light wingloaded.  btw, the F4U stallspeeds in that maual are made with almost dry tanks, so the wingload is very low, resulting in a rather low stall speed.
With that weight the wingload is 176kg/m², while the P51D with 75% fule still has 203kg/m².
That the stall speed of the F4U drop by using the flaps dont indicate that the lift increase that much over the whole speed range.

It is absolut normal for flaps that only a few degrees of flaps create more lift than full flaps, but of course at a different speed!! Full flaps result in a slowspeed airfoil, but a bad one, while the flapless parts of the wings already tend to stall. This conficuration is usefull for landing, but manouvering is not that good.

Normal Flaps are made to lower the stall speed and the aproach speed (drag) and to provide a better sight while landing(nose down behaviour). Flaps dont need to create more lift and in general they dont do that, they need to create the same lift at slower speeds.

Flaps in general tend to decrease the max lift, although the lift at a given AoA increase, the max AoA tend to decrease, resulting in a smaler max lift + much more drag.  

As you can read in the manual 0-20° is the manouver flap setting and its good to slow the plane fast down. In AH i can manouver very good with full flaps. Tight turn with more than 45°-60° bank at 100mph(F4U-1D, 100% fuel), without a bad tendency to snaproll or spin. With 25% the turnspeed dont drop, but the radius, it feels more like a UL glider than like flying a heavy WWII fighter then. And no tendency to enter a spin at all.

Regarding this the F4U´s are real rooki planes.

Greetings,


Knegel