Author Topic: Tracer Rounds?  (Read 1840 times)

Offline frank3

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Tracer Rounds?
« on: March 10, 2007, 10:26:10 AM »
Were tracer rounds actuall bullets that can do the same damage like regular rounds, or just a bright light?

Offline nirvana

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 12:59:56 PM »
They were bullets with white phosphorus behind them that would light when the bullet was fired.  Having the phosphorus, they were a tad bit heavier so they fell a little more then non-tracer rounds.
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Offline frank3

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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 06:18:41 PM »
But they were nonetheless regular bullets, and did the same damage on impact?

Offline Benny Moore

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2007, 07:37:53 PM »
It's doubtful that they would do the same damage due to the fact that they are hollow, but getting hit by a tracer bullet is still getting hit by a chunk of metal moving faster than the speed of sound.

Offline nirvana

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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2007, 09:50:27 PM »
Oops forgot to mention that.  As Benny pointed out, it's still a fast piece of metal careening towards you so I'd imagine it would still do damage of some sort.
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Offline Rollins

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 10:37:22 PM »
Hmm, then the question for me would be-is this modelled in as well?  E.g. does turning off tracers improve the ballistics of your bullet stream?
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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2007, 12:49:30 AM »
I doubt it.  In reality, if you are shooting at high deflection angles and your tracers are hitting the target, most of your bullets are probably missing the target because of the different ballistics.  However, in Aces High, as far as I can tell they have the same ballistics because all my bullets seem to hit at the same time and place, tracers and all.

Offline Keiler

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2007, 03:07:19 AM »
Tracers arent entirely hollow. The are in fact a bit longer than regular bullets so can carry the tracer compound plus have roughly the same average weight (50-60% is still lead), thus having a comparable exterior ballistic. Of course it isnt exactly the same but at short ranges (i.e. 400 or 300yds) it doesnt differ that much to be worried.

Matt
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 03:10:51 AM by Keiler »

Offline Gianlupo

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2007, 06:21:30 AM »
One of our fellow AHer (even though it's a long time I don't see him posting), it's Tony Williams, an expert in weapons and ammunition, Frank. You can find a lot of info in his website:
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2007, 10:48:46 AM »
AFAIK, WW2 pilots generally did not prefer shooting at a target from a distance where the ballistics differences between tracer rounds and normal rounds would show.

 Ofcourse, pilots in planes armed with HMGs with some thousands of rounds may be more compelled to try long distance shooting, and there are some spectacular cases of people claiming to have shot down enemy planes at more than 500, even upto 1000 yards. However these instances are very anecdotal in its nature and it is rarely possible to actually verify if the pilot really had tabs on the exact distance to target. Not to mention such instances are as rare as can be, and the basic methodology during WW2 was to get in as close as possible, preferably under 100m for maximum effect.

 Mr. Tony Williams estimates 200m maximum practical range to shoot down enemy fighters when the target is flying level, and upto 400m against larger targets such as bombers. When the enemy plane is maneuvering you need to be even closer than that.

 Therefore, in WW2 pilots would rarely ever need to worry about their tracer rounds falling short of normal rounds - it doesn't matter when the distance to enemy is less than 150m apart.

(Also, this same logic applies to the HMG vs cannons debate; the proponents of HMGs would suggest that heavy machine gun rounds (50cals usually) had better ballistics and thus would be more effective against enemy fighters than cannon rounds, except they forget that in reality pilots shot from close distances where the ballistics didn't matter all that much.)


ps) Such is the reason why I want AH to drop distance counters in the icon under a certain range, and the ammunition counters removed from the planes. I find it extremely difficult to believe that the frequent long-range shots happening in the game can be explained purely by skill/experience factor alone.

 From my own experiences with other games such as IL2 series that offers an alternative icon/IFF setup, the absence of distance indicators and ammunition counters have a very large impact in the gamer's gunnery as a whole. IMO the whole "game pilots have more experience" theory falls apart in that game.

Offline Benny Moore

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2007, 02:11:10 PM »
The average fighter pilot did that.  The aces, especially the ones with great gunnery, took long-range and high deflection shots.  Some squadrons did not use tracer at all specifically because of the mentioned discrepancy between tracer and armor-piercing incendiary.

Offline quintv

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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2007, 02:48:59 PM »
Someone dig up Hartmann and Marseille, apparently they took long range sniporz shots :D

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2007, 04:32:21 PM »
Quote
The average fighter pilot did that. The aces, especially the ones with great gunnery, took long-range and high deflection shots. Some squadrons did not use tracer at all specifically because of the mentioned discrepancy between tracer and armor-piercing incendiary.


 On the other side of the front there were 'aces' galore with 100+ kills, with pilots at 'merely' 20~30 kills coming by the dozens. Many of these guys fought since the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War in 1939 until VE day, and the sheer amount of combat experience led to the most complete set of studies in air-to-air gunnery; which conclusion was "get in close, then get in closer"

 By far most of them, if not all, preferred to shoot at ranges as close as possible. It was a maxim laid out since the beginning of WWI and they stuck to it. Almost every famed pilot one might be able to think of had a tendency to shoot at those specific ranges.

 Not to mention most of the airforces had their basic gun convergence distances set to within 300yards tops, with the Luftwaffe using about 200m as a standard and the RAF being 250yards after BoB. The USAAF and USN had their 50cals preferred slightly further out to 300yards or so (1000ft., being 333yds). The Finnish Airforce used 150m, Hans Wind preferred 30m (!).


 Quoting Andy from the SimHQ;

Quote
"In Aces High, we can set our own convergence values...a typical setting is 300 yards. At the start of WW2, this would have been an accepted value. In fact, the Royal Air Force standard for convergence in 1939 was 400 yards...despite hard evidence from intelligence coming from the Spanish Civil War that the Luftwaffe was using a value of half that.

 Let's stop here and understand why the RAF arrived at that 400 yard convergence figure. Simply put, they believed this to be the proper range to gain the maximum number of hits on a target...but you must realize that the "target" in the mind of the RAF leadership in 1939 was not a Me-109. Instead, it was a He-111 or Do-17. Prior to the Battle of Britain, the RAF made the near-fatal error of thinking that any air war with Germany would be against a Luftwaffe operating from German bases. The mission of the RAF would be to intercept bomber attacks over England...and because of the distances involved, that tended to rule out the bombers being escorted by fighters. Few imagined that the Luftwaffe might operate from bases in France and the Low Countries, thereby permitting the use of fighters over England.

 The RAF's narrow victory in 1940 may not have immediately changed the "official view" of convergence, but it certainly changed many a pilot's mind. There, and for the remainder of the war, regardless of nationality, the mantra of "get in close" was universally acknowledged. While no one established exactly what that meant in specific numbers, most pilots understood the advantages of point blank firing ranges!


                                                    - Andy Bush, "Air To Air Gunnery Revisited - Guns, Gunsights, and Convergence"


 The logic that "close distances" were only required by the average, and the 'experts' were free to shoot at much longer ranges with ease, is entirely false. It basically relies on a few tall tales from some of the aces in which they fondly remember how they shot down an enemy fighter at 1000 yards. Unfortunately people often disregard how unusual such a thing was to happen.

 It would be fallacy to say all pilots abided by the "get in close, then closer" rule all the time, and long range shots did happen, particularly in some of the planes with centralized armament which didn't need convergence adjustment. The general convergence distances indicate many pilots routinely shot at targets upto 300yards or so, but like Andy Bush says "getting in close enough for the kill" is what makes an excellent fighter pilot. Adolf Galland, in his revised Luftwaffe A2A gunnery manual (1944), picks the number one reason why inexperienced pilots miss their targets as; "1. You shoot from too far away."

 In other words, it's the 'aces' who preferred close ranges most of all, with those lesser in skill and experience often shooting at distances too far away. It was NOT the other way around.

 Here's one more final quote, from one of the aces of your very own beloved P-38, and arguably one of the best combat pilots there was in the US during WW2. It's from his own words the proverb, "get in close, then closer" comes from in the first place;

Quote
"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."

                                      - TM "Tommy" McGuire, USAAF, 38 victories








Quote
Someone dig up Hartmann and Marseille, apparently they took long range sniporz shots


 Is that a fact?

 
Quote
"When you begin flying combat and you are a hundred meters from the enemy machine, you get jittery because you are too close to him. That is what you feel in the beginning. By experience you come to know that when you are a hundred meters from the other machine you are still too far away. The inexperienced pilot breaks away for fear of mid-air collision. The experienced pilot brings his machine in much closer, and when he fires, the other machine goes down."

                                                                - Erich Hartmann, 352 kills
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 04:40:44 PM by Kweassa »

Offline quintv

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Tracer Rounds?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2007, 04:33:50 PM »
Is English not your primary language Kweassa?

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2007, 04:36:37 PM »
Perhaps your attempt at cynicism sucks, quint.