Tracer Rounds?

[quintv]

Cynicism? Thats like not even close.  I suppose that answers my question though.

I'll start posting parenthesis at the bottom of all my posts explaining what  point  it is I'm trying to convey when I'm being even the least bit oblique. As a community service.  I doubt a single other poster, even those who have English as a second or third language, would have confused my previous post with anything other than a jab at what I think is Benny's incorrect conclusion.

(note: the sentence about performing a community service  has a sarcastic twinge)

[Kweassa]

Then your attempt at sarcasm sucks too, quint.

[quintv]

I'm glad you found your dictionary.

[frank3]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I never knew there was so much about tracer rounds

Thanks!

[Benny Moore]

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."

- TM "Tommy" McGuire, USAAF, 38 victories

He also said never to turn fight a Zeke, and yet he did just that regularly in his big '38 (quite succesfully, I might add; his undoing was trying it once while carrying drop tanks, which disrupted the airflow under the wing and negated the P-38's perfect stalling characteristics).  Dick Bong also turned with Zekes, despite his own advice to never do so.  Advice to green pilots does not at all equate to a description of one's own tactics.  Just as they did, so do I; I shoot from long ranges in the game and turn fight with Zekes, but I tell new pilots not to do either.

[Treize69]

Originally posted by quintv
Someone dig up Hartmann and Marseille, apparently they took long range sniporz shots

They're nothing, look up Gunther Rall. Is supposed to have killed a Yak with a deflection shot at about 750 yards while inverted.

[Kweassa]

He also said never to turn fight a Zeke, and yet he did just that regularly in his big '38 (quite succesfully, I might add; his undoing was trying it once while carrying drop tanks, which disrupted the airflow under the wing and negated the P-38's perfect stalling characteristics). Dick Bong also turned with Zekes, despite his own advice to never do so. Advice to green pilots does not at all equate to a description of one's own tactics. Just as they did, so do I; I shoot from long ranges in the game and turn fight with Zekes, but I tell new pilots not to do either.

 These 'vets' have a peculiar tendency to come up with a strict set of rules which allowed them to become such excellent pilots in the first place, and then get cocky and start ignoring it immediately. Unfortunately, that usually gets them killed.

 So lets ponder about just how convincing this "vets don't need to keep to the advice they give out to n00bs" argument of yours is.

 Hmmm.. let's see...

 Nope. Not convincing at all.
 
 Besides, the worlds highest scoring ace has some more advice on close-range gunnery and aerial combat tactics. He served in the airforce a lot longer than Allied pilots, but not particularly longer than any one of his peers in the Luftwaffe. It's him who scored 352 kills, not them.

You can have computer sights of anything you like, but I think you have to go to the enemy on the shortest distance and knock him down from point-blank range. You'll get him from in close. At long distance, it's questionable.

I opened fire when the whole windshield was black with the enemy . . . at minimum range . . . it doesn't matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver.

 He stuck to his own advice he gave out to the 'greens' - and he survived the war. Not only did he survive, but all of his wingmen also survived.
 
 That tells a lot about what happens when a vet ignores any one of the advices he gives out to the 'greens'.

[Gianlupo]

Amen, Kweassa! All of your statements are quite right. And they are true for RL and game: I begun playing AH with a convergence of 400 yards, I've cut it to 250/200 (depending on the weapon type) and I'm thinking about cutting it even more.

And, quint, sorry buddy, but your sarcasm may not be immediately clear, especially for people whose first language is not English.

[Knegel]

Hi,

in the Book regarding Hartmann the writer did refer to other Pilots, like Rall, who did count as snipers and was able to get kills regulary on 200-500m range. Some of Hartmanns wingis wrote that Hartmann did so as well, but preferred his usual tactic to close in to 30-50m to get the kill for sure.
The preferred tactic of Willi Reschke and his wingis while attacking 4 Mots was to start to shoot only with the MG´s to the tailgunner from around 600m, at around 300m he shifted the aim toward the inner wing or engine and he did enable the MK108 as well.

Pilots did start to dissable the tracerrounds cause they was visible for the target pilot as well, so when the 1st shot wasnt good, the target normaly started to evade.

There are not a few, there are plenty of pilot storys about kills between 200 and 500m.
Since the Brits did use 250yards and the US 300 yards convergence, i would consider this as a normal shootingdistance.

Of course its logical that a closer distance bring much advantage, but not always a pilot could sneak in that close.

Greetíngs,

Knegel

[Charge]

Well, with MK108 it was not wise to go very close as one unfortunate German ace noticed when pieces of exploded IL2 hit his plane and he had to ditch...

The tracers have one more drawback which is that the burning of the tracer substance sometimes tends to burn unevenly and the projectile stumbles as the mass division becomes uneven and the rotation is disturbed. Well, even if every one out of ten would do this its effect would be insignificant.

-C+

[Keiler]

Originally posted by Charge


The tracers have one more drawback which is that the burning of the tracer substance sometimes tends to burn unevenly and the projectile stumbles as the mass division becomes uneven and the rotation is disturbed. Well, even if every one out of ten would do this its effect would be insignificant.

-C+

Charge, just asking, have you witnessed this personly? Because my assumption would be that the extreme rotational speed would equal this out as soon as it happens. We're talking about 10000s to 100000s RPM at least. Very interesting point!

Regards,

Matt

[Charge]

Unfortunately I haven't. I just read about it in an old airforce gunnery manual.

A projectile does not fly perfectly straight anyway and that is caused by minor differences in material so quality is a factor if this happens.

It would be interesting to know how often these "tumbles" happen anyway.. say, out of hundred tracers or so....

-C+

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Charge
Unfortunately I haven't. I just read about it in an old airforce gunnery manual.

A projectile does not fly perfectly straight anyway and that is caused by minor differences in material so quality is a factor if this happens.

It would be interesting to know how often these "tumbles" happen anyway.. say, out of hundred tracers or so....

-C+

I've seen quite a bit of 5.56, 7.62, and caliber .50 tracer usage, especially at night.  I've fired weapons using all the above calibers.  I've never noticed any appreciable "tumbling" from tracers, nor an appreciable difference in ballistics, especially over ranges lower than 500 meters--even more.  I've tracked tracer rounds from a Ma Deuce at a target 800 meters away that hit the target just like the ball rounds.  

One thing Ken Walsh did mention in "Corsair Aces of WWII" was that convergence settings would change every time the trigger was pulled due to recoil, so he always tried to fire as close as possible to marginalize the incremental error each time he fired.

[Charge]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/images/large/weapon23.jpg

In this picture a bent steel stick is visible which was meant to throw off the projectiles balance shortly after firing. Of course this is an extreme example but it should give an idea what kind of imbalance we are talking about. A light projectile with higher rotational speed does not need to have such imbalance to cause the tumbling.

I guess modern ammo is much more homogenous than war time ammo which was rather hastily manufactured and, probably, sometimes even of lower quality materials than present day projectiles.

-C+