IJN Battleship Yamato

[Fencer51]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I guess then you'd never be able to sit through Das Boot.  


ack-ack

Nope, I own the DVD.  That was fairly told from both sides and it was a MOVIE, this was supposed to be a documentary.   I also have read many times Iron Coffins by Werner, an excellent book, as is Escort Commander by Robinson.  It takes both sides to tell a story.

I do not appreciate any "historical" program which attempts to rewrite history in the modern venacular of PCness.  

I must appologize to National Geographic.  The progam I saw was a NOVA program on PBS.  "Sinking the Supership" see the program's website here.

[Irwink!]

I just got home from an early dinner with my Mom and Dad and mentioned having read this thread and watching the film clip. Dad's a U.S Navy veteran of the Pacific and Atlantic theaters. He also took part in the Atomic tests at Bikini and was part of the detail that prepared the Nagato and even went back aboard afterwards. He knows who was resposible for what but I still find it somewhat amazing that he holds no animosity towards his former foes. Anyway, he (and I) appreciated the opportunity to talk about it again. Thanks for the post Drediock.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Simaril
Fair questiona all -- but ignoring the differences between nations' treatment of prisoners and subjects is more "open minded" than honest. And outright lies love the opportunity to hide behind the banner of fairness.

Would any honest student of history argue that the allies had a Buchenwald or and Auschwitz? When "open minded" revisionists claim each country was the same, maybe citing the (absolutley unjust) Japanese american detention camps, it's like spitting in the eyes of those who went to the ovens. There is no comparison, none at all.

And that's true for the brutality of Japan's leadership cadre during the war. Read Prisoners of the Japanese. Read about the 200,000 women enslaved by the Japanese military to be forced unpaid prostitutes. . Read about the numerous front line allied prisoners found tied to trees and used for live bayonet practice. Look at hard data -- like dramtically lower survival rates for prisoners of Japan as compared with those of Germany -- and try to argue that we were all the same.


And I challenge you to find anything as chiling as this: An officer's diary captured in the Guadalcanal campaign described an incident in which a US airman was tied to a table, and used by the regimental surgeon for anatomy instruction -- while still alive. Worst of all, the officer's only comment in his diary was "It was most instructive."


Yeah, some allied soldiers committed atrocities. But there was NEVER an institutionalized brutality, unthinking callousness to torture and abuse, in the allied armies like there was in both the Japanese and German armies. (Though the German brutalities were focused on specific "racial" groups.)

But I can't imagine beliving that the only difference was that the allies won. That idea is a lie, and those who believe it are deceived.

Ok and that has exactly what to do with tha Yamato?

nobody is denying any atrocities

Just that they are irrelevent to where this story is concerned

[1K3]

That movie is just as bad as Pearl Harbor (TM)

[Rino]

Originally posted by TracerX
The Japanese have every right to have pride in their military history, just as much as we do.  They are no more Imperialistic hooligans than we are.  It has been 60+years since the end of WW2, and the generations that live there now have no connection to the criminal offences that you want to continue to hold over their heads.  They are not to be held responsible for the war crimes any more than I am to be held responsible for slavery or percecutions of my ancestors whatever they may be.  I would argue that no society has changed as much as a whole as Japan has following the end of WW2.  I have spent time in Japan, talked to the people, including actual veterans of the war, and they are no different from you and I.  Every one that I spoke to are incredibly greatfull for the assistance and kindness they recieved from the Americans, following the war.  They are much further down the path of reconciliation than we are if we continue to hold such opinions of the Japanese people.  Let them construct their history in the way they choose to remember it.  We have done the same with our history.

     I find this interesting on the same day I read about Prime Minister Abe's
little misstep claiming that the Japanese army never coerced women into
becoming hospitality girls at army brothels.  This has understandably
annoyed the chinese and koreans who are putting pressure on the US to
pressure Japan to apologize.

     Sorry that doesn't fit the PC moral equivalency world view, but there you
are.

[TracerX]

Originally posted by Simaril
But Tracer, this isnt an "either/or" -- there's no logical reason that a people can't both admire their heroes and condemn their criminals. That's the way Germany has approached things, and IMHO its an honest way to do it.

"Constructing history" implies that there is no such thing as truth. That is also a lie, if that's what the construction crew means. In our history community, there are many interpretations of data, many theories of why things were done.  And if someone proposes a theory that cannot stand up to scrutiny, it's rejected. If its wrongly rejected, it doesnt go away...and usually it proves its worth given tume. (If nothing else, old fogies die off leaving the field to the young guns.)

I'd never blame an entire people for anything. The sortie of the Yamamoto was "A Glorious Way to Die" (great book btw), a heroic effort. The men who died, did so doing their duty for their country. The men who ordered the sortie, some believe, were motivated not by military considerations but by a prideful desire to not see the flagship sunk at her moorings. Understandable, but was it worth the sacrifice of so many who would have otherwise lived?

That's another question.

Anyone who "blames" modern Japanese for the crimes of the past is ignorant. But, it can be equally dangerous to ignore the parts of the past that are unpleasant -- especially if that includes denial that they ever happened. There's a reason it's illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany, a country that initiaed two world wars within 25 years....

And that's why some thoughtful people get concerned at the way Japan has chosen to present its past to itself.

So I guess I should ask, have we adequately recognized the criminals of our history?  Have we recognized the sins of Slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans and Mexian Citizens under the banner of Manifest Destiny?  I am not asking that we open these old wounds of the American past.  I would not think that we would accept some of the ideas that were then so easily adopted.  So what makes us think that the Japanese have not learned the lessons of their past?  I don't see any danger in the portrayal of this movie the way it is.  Even if it paints America in a bad and menacing light, it has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor or Manchurian atrocities.  We need not assume that these lessons are not also being appropriately taught as blemishes on their national history.

[bj229r]

I'd reckon that their navy was probably more honorable than the rest, but it doesn't make up for the fact that 1 US soldier out of every THREE died in captivity, or that they arbitrarily slaughtered 37 THOUSAND innocent Chinese at Nanking after the battle was over--all comes, as said before, from the fact that they were taught human life was insignificant, esp. non Japanese.  (COOL ship though:aok )

[E25280]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'd also be for a Band of Brothers type story as told from the Germans as well.

Look up a 70's flick called "Cross of Iron."  It's been 7-10 years since I last saw it, so I don't remember all the details, but it is told from a German perspective on the East Front.

[Krusty]

Erich Maria Remarque, "All Quiet on the Western Front", also.

[E25280]

Originally posted by Krusty
Erich Maria Remarque, "All Quiet on the Western Front", also.

True, but wrong war.

[Krusty]

True, but "the other perspective" definitely

[SFRT - Frenchy]

What a beautifull ship.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by TracerX
So I guess I should ask, have we adequately recognized the criminals of our history?  Have we recognized the sins of Slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans and Mexian Citizens under the banner of Manifest Destiny?  I am not asking that we open these old wounds of the American past.  I would not think that we would accept some of the ideas that were then so easily adopted.  So what makes us think that the Japanese have not learned the lessons of their past?  I don't see any danger in the portrayal of this movie the way it is.  Even if it paints America in a bad and menacing light, it has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor or Manchurian atrocities.  We need not assume that these lessons are not also being appropriately taught as blemishes on their national history.

First, a brief aside: I would not consider the attack on Pearl Harbor as an "attrocity".  I would consider it a strategic mistake, but at the operational level, arguably a flawlessly planned and executed attack on a military target.  

Now, my brief response:

We reopen the debate on slavery every time the Civil War is discussed.  Further, go into the Smithsonian, and there is much discussed regarding all of the above listed U.S. "issues" in our checkered history--all openly presented and paid for by the taxpayer dime.  

An interesting annecdote:  If you've been to the museum in Nagasaki that commemorates the dropping of the second bomb, there is a timeline that greets you as soon as you enter.  The title at the top is written "Events Leading Up To The Dropping of The Atomic Bomb on Nagasaki".  The timeline starts in 1942, with the formation of General Grove's command.  I took one look at that and said to myself, "there's another very important date missing..."  I would hate to make assumptions, but I believe it could be argued that the Japanese collectively like to disassociate Pearl Harbor with the U.S. "atrocities" that occurred in early August, 1945.

For a great read on how the cultural misunderstandings between the Japanese and U.S. completely aggravated the heightened brutality on both sides of the Pacific War, look for a book called "War Without Mercy".  Very enlightening book.  Nothing like pictures of Marines on Guadalcanal boiling Japanese skulls to send home as paper weights--and I am a former Marine, and have no problem stating that.  Attempting to understand the actions of participants in WWII (or any conflict for that matter) without accounting for the context with which their decisions were made is an unjust and naive exercise in self-righteousness...

And with respect to battleship comparisons:

The other comparisons aside, the comparison of Fire Control is dead-on.  When the Navy recommissioned the Iowa Class ships in the 80's, there was a lengthy debate regarding upgrading the fire control computers on board.  Ultimately, it was decided that the capability of the WWII technology when compared with a cost-effective replacement, was still viable as an accurate means to move those gnarly shells 30 miles, even though it was a bit clunky.  As a result, they hired a bunch of old WWII gunnersmates, and they taught the new breed how to run the old computers.  So, in effect, the Fire Control in the 40's was good enough to last the U.S. Navy almost 60 years.

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Im not going to dispute those findings as being non factual in nature. II dont know
 But who is the author of the webpage and what qualifies him as being an expert in the matter other then him reading a few books and asking a few peopleon the subject?
Something we all could do.

I gotta give him this much.
He writes a hell of a disclaimer

Well Dred, since 90% of the ships in the competition are no longer with us so we can't just sail them into a harbor, give them various tests first hand, and then declare a winner, this is as close to a thorough detailed comparison is I've found.  Alot of it is based on Nathan Okuna's guns and armor tables that are thoroughly researched.  If you can find a more detailed and thorough comparison I'm all ears....errr, eyes.

He had to have that disclaimer from the original comparison he did years ago.  Enough Yamatofans/Bismarckfans/KG5fans acked about his results he needed to make things clear; it's just the opion of one person who has done a lot of research on the subject.  Still, the fanboi's whined.

[storch]

indeed the cost should be counted. BBs were a gargantuan expense.