Author Topic: IJN Battleship Yamato  (Read 1960 times)

Offline Squire

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IJN Battleship Yamato
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2007, 09:59:30 PM »
EDIT (supposed to be above Storches reply) ;)

An interesting item they seemed to overlook in the comparisons though, despite being quite thorough (im talking the BBs here), is the cost to each country in comparable dollars. To really declare which BB was "best" shouldn't cost also come into it? also range, didnt see a comparison on that either.

I think much of it is subjective.

I also think any straight gun duel would also heavily depend on who got a good hit in 1st, in any case such duels were not how navies fought in WW2. Too many aircraft and subs around for that.

Yamato is a fascinating ship, and very interesting history.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2007, 10:04:12 PM »
Cost was out of the scope.  It was based on the capability of each ship compared to the other.  If cost was factored you'd have to included D.O.E. as well.  The Yamato's were fuel hogs, which is factored into the comparison.
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2007, 10:29:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Was that a Hellcat the video shows dropping a torpedo?

ack-ack


Looked like it.

Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2007, 10:33:48 PM »
For those that missed it in the original post in the O'Club.

The Yamato sinking.
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Offline Squire

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« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2007, 10:35:38 PM »
I have to say I think BBs the tonnage of Yamato were simply beyond common sense to build. The IJN would have been better off building BBs of a tonnage perhaps 2/3 that size, say Kongo class? but 2-3 times the #. Especially considering Japan had limited heavy industry and needed to import their oil. Several surface groups with BBs are better than one, even if that one is the best. Bragging rights? sure, but not built for war.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2007, 11:57:09 PM »
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Yeah, some allied soldiers committed atrocities. But there was NEVER an institutionalized brutality, unthinking callousness to torture and abuse, in the allied armies like there was in both the Japanese and German armies. (Though the German brutalities were focused on specific "racial" groups.)


 Unfortunately, to the rest of the world the US is as much an organized and institutionalized machine of brutality as well.
 
 Name one instance since 1945 up to date in which US engaged in a highly controversial/illegal military operations throughout the world ranging from intelligence/covert ops to anti-communist incursions, paramilitary activities, invading the sovereighnity of another nation without international consent, "War against terror", "The hunt for WMDs", and on and on and on. A variety of military operations were carried out which resulted in untold number of civilian casulaties and human rights violations, and not one official acknowledgement and apology from the US.
 
 That's right. The US never apologizes, never, ever.

 Even if they go so far as to acknowledge that a certain event which they are being accused of did happen, they still don't apologize. The clever diplomatic think-thanks coming up with a million-and-one excuses to claim the 'neccessity of it all'. Frankly, how anyone expects anything different from the Japanese is beyond me.

 Don't get me wrong. I'm as much against Mr. Abe's rightwing Japanese policies as any other. However, bringing the past histories against every movie the Japanese make which is based on WW2 is just plain ol' silly.

 Oh sure, I understand why some people are concered about the 'glorification of past history', and yet for some reason, the same people who are concerned about such things never seem to be to be as much concerned with the ugly aspects of their own country.

 Weird, ain't it?

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2007, 12:02:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Snip

Do you think you'd be able to write this now if the evil US had not been involved in Korea?

Just asking.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2007, 12:34:13 AM »
Amazing how twisted a simple post about a battleship gets, eh bronk?
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2007, 12:57:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Name one instance since 1945 up to date in which US engaged in a highly controversial/illegal military operations throughout the world ranging from intelligence/covert ops to anti-communist incursions, paramilitary activities, invading the sovereighnity of another nation without international consent, "War against terror", "The hunt for WMDs", and on and on and on.


As Bronk alluded to, U.S. involvement in Korea was sanctioned by U.N. mandate.  Also, the first Persian Gulf War...also sanctioned by U.N. mandate.  Bosnia, U.N. mandate.  Kosovo, U.N. mandate.  Somalia, U.N mandate.  

Not saying we haven't strayed from the straight and narrow, just countering your argument.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2007, 01:10:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
I have to say I think BBs the tonnage of Yamato were simply beyond common sense to build. The IJN would have been better off building BBs of a tonnage perhaps 2/3 that size, say Kongo class? but 2-3 times the #. Especially considering Japan had limited heavy industry and needed to import their oil. Several surface groups with BBs are better than one, even if that one is the best. Bragging rights? sure, but not built for war.


The IJN would have been better off building more CV's, their escorts, airplanes and pilot training centers.  

BB's were obsolescing as the war began, just no one knew it yet.  You could argue that the U.S. Navy saw the future demise of the battlewagon (after witnessing their instant effectiveness as artificial reefs in Hawaii), since they only built 4 BB's after the war began in contrast to the other types of tonnage that were built.  They did have 2 more under construction, and plans for 5 more after that eventually, but the last 5 were cancelled, and the other two were cancelled and scrapped.  In contrast, 24 ESSEX class CV's were built during the war.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2007, 01:49:23 AM »
Well, Yamato was built before the war and Musashi was mostly done by the time the war started.  Shinano was almost finished as a CV when she was sunk.


As to Kweassa's salient point, the US never apologizes either.  We make excuses, or just hand out medals.  Look at what we did when we shot down an Iranian air liner.  Look at our response to Mai Lai, or Abu Garaib, or our backing of Pinochet.  We never apologize either.

I do think the Japanese need to look deep and hard at the attrocities in their history, but I don't think that jingoistic Americans who can't find fault with their own country's behavior are the ones to show it to them.
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Offline eilif

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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2007, 01:58:16 AM »
Kweassa nailed it.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2007, 02:11:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
As to Kweassa's salient point, the US never apologizes either.  We make excuses, or just hand out medals.  Look at what we did when we shot down an Iranian air liner.  Look at our response to Mai Lai, or Abu Garaib, or our backing of Pinochet.  We never apologize either.


I'll repeat my earlier post by saying that "Attempting to understand the actions of participants in WWII (or any conflict for that matter) without accounting for the context with which their decisions were made is an unjust and naive exercise in self-righteousness..."

I could modify that statement by substituting "Captain Rogers" for "participants in WWII" for the Iranian Air Liner shoot-down, "Lt. Calley" for Mi Lai, and "the U.S. during the Cold War" for Pinochet.  I am not saying that these things weren't bad, but to pull them out of their context is the path that leads to not understanding why they happened in the first place, which helps us to not repeat them.  I've talked to people that were involved in the Iranian airliner incident, and a member of the Army that operated in and around the area of Mi Lai during the time the incident happened.  There are layers of context that have to be taken into account for both those incidents.  That doesn't excuse them--just don't point your finger and say "that was wrong" because you read about it in some book or magazine article and it offended your sense of decency.

Offline FDutchmn

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« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2007, 03:26:25 AM »
well... if that video bothers you then you shouldn't watch it.   Some people dig it, some people don't, that's the way it is in life.

As for the rest, I as a Japanese have already made my stance known and I believe that is adequately conveyed to people from Korea like Kweassa on this BBS.  That is what is important for me.

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2007, 06:18:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
I have to say I think BBs the tonnage of Yamato were simply beyond common sense to build. The IJN would have been better off building BBs of a tonnage perhaps 2/3 that size, say Kongo class? but 2-3 times the #. Especially considering Japan had limited heavy industry and needed to import their oil. Several surface groups with BBs are better than one, even if that one is the best. Bragging rights? sure, but not built for war.


It was to make up for other ...ummm...deficiencies :lol
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