Combat Tour and high alt fighting

[Widewing]

Although we have no idea when Combat Tour will be released, those planning to fly CT should probably begin getting accustomed to combat at high altitude. When CT debuts, the first tour will be the ETO. That means masses of bombers flying between 24k and 28k. It also means escort fighters flying above the bombers.

The Trainers will be conducting monthly clinics on high alt flying and fighting. For those who haven't ventured to dogfight at 25k to 30k, it's a much different world up there.

In a 1943-44 scenario, the Luftwaffe pilots are going to be very hard pressed. Planes like the 190A-5 and 109G-6 are out of their element at 25k, and things only get worse as they go higher. When compared to the P-47D-11, the 190 and 109 are seriously out-classed up high. If we go a bit further along to the summer of 1944, things don't improve. All three major American fighters (P-38J, P-51B/D and P-47s) offer excellent performance. It's easy to see why the Luftwaffe struggled, their aircraft simply were not engineered to get their best performance up that high.  

I did some quick turn radius testing at 25,000 feet.

Fuel load 25%, zero burn. No flaps and stall limiter turn on to remove pilot skill from the data and create a sense of relative performance. At this altitude, fighters turn huge circles, 4 to 5 times larger than at sea level.

Turn radius / speed in mph TAS / Average circle in time / Turn rate in degrees per second

190D-9: 2,563.3 / 237 mph / 46.31 sec / 7.77
109G-14: 2,109.6 / 200 mph / 43.15 sec / 8.34
P-51D: 2,184.9 / 219 mph / 42.72 sec / 8.43
P-47D-40: 2,119.2 / 226 mph / 40.15 sec / 8.97
P-38J: 2,151.2 / 241 mph / 38.22 sec / 9.42

This shows that the Dora takes longest to get around a circle, and it's a big circle. In contrast, the 109G-14 turns the smallest circle (by just 10 feet), but the trade off is in turn rate. It's also too slow at 25k to contend with the much faster US iron.

So, the 109G-14 will have its hands full with all three American fighters as it holds little advantage in turn radius, and has a slower turn rate and is down on power and speed.

Unfortunately, the Dora cannot afford to try maneuvering with the US fighters. All will out-turn it with ease. While faster than the 109G-14, it is no faster than the P-38J and P-47D at 25k and considerably slower than the P-51D. The Dora will be limited to fast, slashing attacks followed by an immediate bug-out. If the pilot attempts to turn or burns down his E, he will be hammered by the more agile enemy fighters.

I urge prospective Combat Tour pilots to log some time flying and fighting at high altitude.

Try this: Offline, load the TA map and take off from one of the 30k bases. Climb out to between 33k and 35k and try attacking the drones... Be advised, it won't be easy. Especially if you are not flying high alt fighters like the P-47s or the SpitIX or SpitXIV. Even the Mustang struggles up at 30k.

There are many 20k fields on the TA map as well, with the drones circling at 23k.

At 30,000 feet and above, the P-47s are superb. The P-47N is faster at 40k than the Bf 109K-4 is at its best altitude, which is just 22k. It's important to remember that at high altitude, maneuverability is almost totally dependent upon reserve horsepower. Up there, your indicated airspeed is the one thing you must watch carefully. For example, at 32,000 feet, the Fw 190A-8 can barely do 210 mph IAS. That's not very fast and the 190A series were not good performers up that high. However, it is vital to understand that when turning at just 2g, the 190A-8 will stall at 170 mph IAS.

Think about that; max speed and stall speed are separated by just 40 mph IAS. There's little margin for error when flying the 190A-8 up high. In contrast, the P-47D can attain 260 mph IAS at 32k, giving it a huge advantage in maneuverability as it has the power to turn at 4g and not lose altitude or risk a stall and subsequent spin.

You can discover these things for yourself by flying offline from the 30k fields.

Well, this Friday (March 16) night at 9 PM Eastern is the first high altitude clinic in the Training arena. All are welcome to come and practice.

My regards,

Widewing

[Angus]

When is the WW2 date set for Combat tour? 1943, the beginning of daylight bombing?
Widewing, it would be cool to see how the Spit IX came out there, since it was used as an escort to N-France. It's also a very potent high-alt fighter, only beginning to shine at 25K.
My money goes on it....I think.

[zorstorer]

Moral to the story....

Fly for the winning team....or dive for the deck after a pass or 2  

[Viking]

There were plenty of daylight raids below 24k. Some B-17 raids were done as low as 9k over France, many around 15k.

[Stampf]

Great post Widewing.  Thank you for taking the time to not only run the tests but to post your findings and then to offer assistance.  It is very true, we are going to be extremely hard pressed in the coming CT, as I believe everyone saw in the Attack on Frankfurt two Sunday's ago.  The Axis rides just do not handle well over 26K and even the slightest mistake and you simply drop out of the sky like a rock.  It takes a steady, slow hand and much attention to instrumentation just to function properly, let alone attacking enemy heavies and evading escorts.  Those who will do well are the ones who have practiced at these altitudes.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Viking
There were plenty of daylight raids below 24k. Some B-17 raids were done as low as 9k over France, many around 15k.

Indeed, during August of 1944, heavies were used to bomb German front-line positions from relatively low altitude. However, there was little to no Luftwaffe opposition as the sky was literally filled with Allied fighters. Even if we go back to the first B-17 raids, they were heavily escorted by the RAF.

All that aside, do not expect low-level or even medium-level missions in ETO tour. Expect what actually happened during the strategic bombing campaign.

My regards,

Widewing

[Puck]

Wasn't that when they were trying to break out after the invasion?  Heavies came in en mass to plow a path for the allied armor through German defenses.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Stampf
It is very true, we are going to be extremely hard pressed in the coming CT, as I believe everyone saw in the Attack on Frankfurt two Sunday's ago.  The Axis rides just do not handle well over 26K and even the slightest mistake and you simply drop out of the sky like a rock.  It takes a steady, slow hand and much attention to instrumentation just to function properly, let alone attacking enemy heavies and evading escorts.  Those who will do well are the ones who have practiced at these altitudes.

I'm reasonably certain that the 190s will be tasked with attacking the bombers, with the 109s providing cover. Unless the 109s are armed with the gondos, they will not be very effective against the heavies. The problem for the escorts is to break up the 190 formations and force the 109s to try stopping them. As you mentioned, experience shows that the the P-47s and Spitfire IX excel up high, thus the 109s will be very busy just trying to survive. The 190s will be little more than target practice.

With that in mind, I hope the Luftwaffe gets air starts high enough and early enough to position themselves for at least one coordinated attack. If not, it will be nearly impossible to get to the bombers intact.

I expect to see missions where the escorts cannot take the heavies all the way to the target. This is the scenario that the Luftwaffe players need to have some fun, by attacking unescorted bombers.

We also do not know how capable the AI will be and how random AI capability will be. I assume it will vary.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Puck
Wasn't that when they were trying to break out after the invasion?  Heavies came in en mass to plow a path for the allied armor through German defenses.

Yes, Operation Cobra: Breakout of the 3rd Army.

However, in several instances,  they killed almost as many Americans as Germans.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bodhi]

Great post Widewing.

[LEADPIG]

Yea great post Widewing your always informative..

After high altitude attacks and escorts in Il-2 and alot of other simulations my bet is this.

Bombers and escorts will be cruising along at high alt trying to stay together and hold position and altititude, just the sligtest pull of the stick and you'll hear the stall buzzer.

The Lw interceptors will come crawling along trying to get up to altitude, some will just fall out, others will make it and get a feeble pass at the bombers trying to get their nose up to get a quick snapshot before they stall out.

The escorts will dive on them, the interceptors will dive to avoid the attack.

A swirling Spiral will occur as both planes attempt to turn hard but can't because of thin air, they will spiral down attempting to outurn each other.

The majority of the actual dogfights won't occur up at 35k-30k, but will be driven down and occur more in the 25k down to 15k region where they can maneauver.

Some will follow the fight down to the deck, American planes will lose their advantage and will be ganged up on and die.

The escort fighters should only dive just enough to fight the interceptors away from the bombers and should probably not follow the Luftwaffe planes below 25 or 20k, some escorts will have to remain top cover regardless and stay high while others follow the Luftwaffe planes down.

They will however find it hard to climb up to formation and catch up and will be left slightly behind.

That's what i think will happen, opinions thoughts please ?  

[bozon]

While WW's assessment of performance is correct, I think the conclusion that axis planes will be "just targets" to the allied is exaggerated. It is easily demonstrated in FSO frames.

Another interesting difference between high and low alt fighting is the great disparity between IAS (aerodynamics) and TAS (ballistics). While the planes fly at IAS close to their stall speed and hard to manuver, their TAS is very fast. This means that they carry a lot of momentum and can pull some serious zoom climbs. Also the closure rates are much faster requiring much better and precise maneuvering (with less maneuvering ability) for a good interception.

[Old Sport]

Diversionary B-26 raids with escorts as part of a larger plan with heavies could be flown at medium altitudes.

Best Regards

[Charge]

"That means masses of bombers flying between 24k and 28k."

That was probably a good idea because of flak but in practice sometimes the weather (wind speed and direction) and the altitude of cloud layers caused the bombing to commence at lower altitude.  B24s in general made their runs lower than B17s?

"While WW's assessment of performance is correct, I think the conclusion that axis planes will be "just targets" to the allied is exaggerated. It is easily demonstrated in FSO frames."

If the bombers come in at 28k the 190As can do almost nothing. Any serious maneuvering causes them to dive and try to grab speed to gain control. And any such move makes it impossible to reach the bombers. Also the attacks will mostly happen from dead 6 oc which means lots of kills for the bombers. The 109s will fare a bit better but they will be quite slow too.

This means that to get the situation authentic the bombers need to fly at realistic speeds and not at 100% and the bombing altitude needs to be variable and this needs to be done with weather conditions.

-C+

[Angus]

If I recall right, the B24 would fly lower than the B17, - or was it the other way around? Also a ceiling/power-weight issue with the bombers.
And attacks from 6? maybe also from 12 (high and low) which made quite some success with the 190's.
190's may also be broken up into "lightly" armed (4x20 mm is not that light) and "heavy" units, - that also makes a difference whether they'll make 1 pass or more.
With Allied bombers coming in several formations, things also get a tad more complicated.
Will the controlling be done only by computer? Is it formatted by the HTC crew to follow history as well as the in-game achievements?