Author Topic: M4 Sherman (Read 3329 times)

BBBB · « **on:** March 21, 2007, 12:10:06 PM »

What do you think it's impact will be? Other than speed I do not see where it is going to make much of an impact. The .50 on top will be nice against air targets. Unless they perk the Panzer I think it will be used less than the T34. But it is still cool to see in the game.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201401

-BB

moot · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:22:31 PM »

Is that .50 different from the other pintle .50s?

Krusty · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:27:36 PM »

I think it'll be almost useless against panzers, unless we get info that proves me wrong.

I think that against T-34s it will also be useless unless fired from directly behind (a rare instance in this game), as the sloped armor makes even panzer rounds bounce straight up.

All in all, unless they perk the panzer (it could happen) it will go the way of the T-34: hangar queen.

Will be cool to have lighter tanks, though. Scenarios and such could use them.

Airscrew · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:39:30 PM »

Depends of what verison of the Sherman we get. Hopefully its the FireFly

Quote

Though no more well-armoured than most M4 versions, the 17 pounder anti-tank gun offered far better performance than the standard 75 mm gun which had been chosen for the infantry support role. Even using the regular APC round it could penetrate the front armour of a Tiger I at up to 1,000 meters; with the more advanced rounds that became common towards the end of war, the APCBC and then the APDS it could penetrate at over 2,000 meters. The principle disadvantages of the Firefly were its low rate of fire (about half the rate of a 76mm Sherman) due to the cramped nature of the turret and the need to reload a gun turned on its side, and the very large and bright muzzle flash of the 17-pdr gun.
The effectiveness of the Firefly resulted in German tank crews being under instructions to eliminate Fireflies first before dealing with the regular M4 tanks.

GENERAL DATA
Formal Designation Cruiser Tank Sherman VC "Firefly"
Type Medium/Cruiser Crew 5
Length /hull (m) 7.85/6.45 Barrel Overhang (m) 1.40
Width (m) 2.67 Height (m) 2.74
Combat Weight (kg) 32700 Radio Equipment No.19
FIREPOWER
Primary Armament 76.2mm ROQF 17-pounder Mk.IV or VII Ammunition Carried 77
Traverse (degrees) Hydraulic (360°) Elevation (degrees) -5° to+20°
Traverse speed (360°) 15 sec. Sight Mk. 3/1
Secondary Armament 1 x .30 cal. M1919A4 MG (coaxial) Ammunition Carried 5000

Speed on/off road 40 km/h Trench Crossing (m) 2.4
ARMOR PROTECTION
Armor Detail Front Side Rear Top/Bottom
Hull 51mm@45°-90° 38mm@90° 38mm@70°-90° 13-25mm@0°
Superstructure 51mm@34° 38mm@90° - 19mm@0-7°
Turret 76mm@60° 51mm@85° 64mm@90° 25mm@0°
Mantlet 38&89mm@90° - - -

Masherbrum · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:53:05 PM »

One hit should decimate a Sherman regardless of the location struck. My late grandfather worked with a Sherman commander in WWII. He said right before the Battle of the Bulge, in one day, he hopped into 7 different Sherman's and lead the charge on 5 Panzers. After the 5 panzers were dispatched, there was no resistance. The Armored Column stopped for a resupply and saw roughly 100 Shermans burning or finished burning on the landscape.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:53:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I think it'll be almost useless against panzers, unless we get info that proves me wrong.

have you ever found any info that proved you correct?

ack-ack

quintv · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2007, 01:40:13 PM »

People who immediately discount the M4s as paper mache vehicles need to stop reading anecdotal accounts of xxx person or about Michael Wittmann, and start looking at armor and penetration values.

There are many variants of the M4 that are a match for our T-34, Pz.IVH, and yes *GASP* the Pz.VIE.

Any version with the higher velocity 76mm or 17lbers will, depending on the ammunition modeled, by more than a match for the IV and T-34, and fully capable of taking on the VIE at all but long range frontal engagements.

I have no idea how much fidelity has been put into the ground vehicles, their armor values, or the penetration values of different guns and ammunition; but coming from a game that takes those values as religion and takes all available and authentic historical data as its basis for its modeling, I'm fairly comfortable that it would also be in the case here.

Edit: I realize that of all the wwii holy truths, the idea that the Tigers were invulnerable death stars and that Shermans were Ford Pintos with a 75mm gun attached, is probably even more sacred and widespread than "MUSTANGS WON TEH WAR!" and such, so, take that for what its worth.

Raptor · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2007, 01:58:14 PM »

M-8 is a match for a panzer.... if you know how to use it.

Krusty · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:06:27 PM »

The reason "most folks" say the Sherman was no match (and FYI nobody's calling them paper mache) for the enemy is because the representative sherman, the early model that saw most of the fighting in Europe, was undergunned to the point of suicide-charges, 4 or more crews sacrificing their lives pointlessly so 1 other crew can get behind a single enemy tank and MAYBE disable it, if that 1 crew was lucky.

The up-gunned versions came later.

Sure, you can get an up-gunned version of the T-34 with a -- what was it? -- 85mm gun? But it wasn't representative of the T-34s as a whole.

For the shermans, the representative version would be the early one.

BBBB · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:11:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by moot
Is that .50 different from the other pintle .50s?

No..but the .50 hits much harder against aircraft. More so then what the Tiger and Panzer are packing...

-BB

Krusty · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:12:04 PM »

Don't the german tanks have 7.65mm? The fiddy cal would definitely be an improvement. I've got more kills in LVT pintle guns than I do in panzers, because that 50cal works well.

DocRoe · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:15:38 PM »

what about the Sherman Calliope? thatd own lol

but the FireFly could stop troops for capping and stuff or light trees on fire to eliminate enemy cover

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:15:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raptor
M-8 is a match for a panzer.... if you know how to use it.

CIRCLE STRAFE! Seriously, works great in the M8 vs. any tank, especially the Tiger with its slow turret rotation speed. You can drive the M8 in circles around the tank and just keep putting those 37mm rounds into the engine.

ack-ack

BBBB · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:20:10 PM »

That was much easier back before the attack of the trees. Now it is a bit harder.

Bodhi · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2007, 02:31:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
The reason "most folks" say the Sherman was no match (and FYI nobody's calling them paper mache) for the enemy is because the representative sherman, the early model that saw most of the fighting in Europe, was undergunned to the point of suicide-charges, 4 or more crews sacrificing their lives pointlessly so 1 other crew can get behind a single enemy tank and MAYBE disable it, if that 1 crew was lucky.

The up-gunned versions came later.

Sure, you can get an up-gunned version of the T-34 with a -- what was it? -- 85mm gun? But it wasn't representative of the T-34s as a whole.

For the shermans, the representative version would be the early one.

I hate to be the one to add facts,

but the M4A1(76) was rolling off the assembly line in December of 43. This vehicle was not the wet ammo storage version. Those (M4A3(76)W were rolling off in March of 44. Both of these versions saw combat in Europe to include the Normandy campaign.

the M4A3E2 Jumbo was being delivered in June of 44 for the express purpose of engaging the Siegfried line. They particpated in assaults to include operation market garden. They had as much as 50% more armour to protect them for frontal assaults on fortified positions.

Sherman VC (aka Firefly) was being delivered in March 44 based off conversions of M4A3 and and M4A4 tanks. General Alexander (in PRO file WO 204/7433, dated 29th March 1944) stated that the Firefly was a weapon that “I badly need for the successful prosecution of my campaign.” That is March of 44 and we have yet to invade Normandy, as he is referencing the Italian pushes.

Krusty, read Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank by RP Hunnicutt. It is an excellent reference on the Sherman.