Author Topic: Things Don't Change.......  (Read 926 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2007, 12:57:29 AM »
I dont think Sherman said that.  My bull-crap detector is going off like crazy.  Give me a link to the source of that quote please.

Edit: I did some searching, and couldn't find a single reference to the Sherman quote above.  There are many pages with quotes from Gen. Sherman, but none have that one.

Myth- BUSTED.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 01:10:06 AM by AquaShrimp »

Offline Suave

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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2007, 01:13:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Yes, Sherman was bad-arse.   He was also a hypocrite.  This man condemned southerners for starting an unnecessary war to defend a bad cause,  yet he unapologetically championed genocidal war against the Plains Indians.

Oh, and "President" Grant also endorsed that policy, at the urging of General Sherman and Phillip Sheridan.
Ethnically cleansing the plains and expanding the US made him a hypocrite because he spoke against going to war against the US and fracturing it? And why did you type arse like you're british ?

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2007, 01:16:49 AM »
Aqua-Shrimp,

Actually, the speech attributed to Sherman may be authentic, for the grammar and syntax appear to be from his time period, but I can't say for sure.

On the other hand, the speech supposedly penned by Lee is suspect, containing grammar and syntax more commonly found in our own time period.  In any event, I find it difficult to believe that the modest, self-effacing Lee would respond publicly to personal criticism in the press.  Indeed his record of success and rock solid moral character largely rendered him immune to such criticism in any event.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 01:31:03 AM »
Suave,

Basically, yes, condemning Southerners for starting a war to defend slavery and then conducting a war of genocide against Native Americans makes Sherman a hypocrite.

There is no moral ambiguity here and it is not a difficult concept to grasp.


I've been in London on a couple of occasions.  Made friends with a couple of fine English gentlemen, and one highly amusing and very garrulous Irishman from Belfast.  They held me in such high regard that they made me an honorary Englishman, and informed me that I was entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining thereunto.

So, I repeat, Sherman was "bad-arse."


Regards, Shuckins

Offline Suave

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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 02:27:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Suave,

Basically, yes, condemning Southerners for starting a war to defend slavery and then conducting a war of genocide against Native Americans makes Sherman a hypocrite.

There is no moral ambiguity here and it is not a difficult concept to grasp.


I've been in London on a couple of occasions.  Made friends with a couple of fine English gentlemen, and one highly amusing and very garrulous Irishman from Belfast.  They held me in such high regard that they made me an honorary Englishman, and informed me that I was entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining thereunto.

So, I repeat, Sherman was "bad-arse."


Regards, Shuckins

But in that statement he's not condeming them for defending slavery.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 06:16:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
But in that statement he's not condeming them for defending slavery.


Oooh, shoots and scores. Lincoln went to war to preserve the Union, the South went over states' rights.

Good catch.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 07:25:07 AM »
He traveled before he shot...the basket is disallowed.


A couple of points:

First, in these discussions about the origins of the Civil War you yankee boys always insist that the South fought to defend the institution of slavery, and totally reject any arguments that the South went to war to preserve "states rights."  On that argument rests the northern assertion that their war was just, while the South's war was cruel and morally repugnant.  While what Sherman is referring to when he mentions the South's "bad cause" may be open to interpretation, there can be no doubt that he considered it a morally reprehensible reason to go to war;  a "crime against civilization."

Secondly, you've neatly side-stepped my original reference to Sherman's genocidal war against the Indians, which was the focal point of my original argument.  What was that, if not a "crime against civilization" and a "bad cause"?  If public opinion had not begun to turn against the government's "Indian Policy," who knows to what conclusion Sherman might have pushed that policy.

Sherman was no saint.  Despised in the South as the "Attilla of the West", even some of his peers were appalled at the tactics he used in his drive through Georgia to the sea.  His scorched-earth policies brought suffering to both black and white alike.

So, again, I assert that he was a hypocrite.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 07:27:33 AM by Shuckins »

Offline john9001

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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2007, 08:00:20 AM »
war is bad, when your in a war , you need generals that will win that war.

after you win, then you can call them anything you want.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2007, 10:00:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins


Secondly, you've neatly side-stepped my original reference to Sherman's genocidal war against the Indians, which was the focal point of my original argument.  What was that, if not a "crime against civilization" and a "bad cause"?  


No I didn't, see ethnic cleansing. Nobody considered the indians civilized, let alone part of the nation.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2007, 10:12:38 AM »
Sherman didn't consider the Indians civilized.  And exactly HOW does that excuse the genocidal war against the Indians?

The Nazis justified the Final Solution with the belief that the Jews were sub-humans.

Your statement that the Indians were not considered part of the nation speaks volumes about the political and moral chicanery that the government went through to deprive the Indians of their land and their lives.

This was bold, unadulterated, unapologetic hypocrisy.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2007, 10:31:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins

Basically, yes, condemning Southerners for starting a war to defend slavery and then conducting a war of genocide against Native Americans makes Sherman a hypocrite.

No it doesn't. Speaking against one horrible thing and supporting a different horrible thing isn't hypocracy.

The necesary part of hypocracy is dishonesty. Decrying something that you willingly and knowingly execute.

He admonishes the south for going to war against the USA, (to defend slavery if you like). He never does go to war against the USA to defend slavery.

He advocates the ethnic cleansing of native americans. He takes part in the ethnic cleansing of native americans.

I think his approach to warfare was ahead of his time. He held no chivalric  illusions about war and knew that the most humane path is to get it on and get it over. In fact if you read his quote you'll notice that he's allready aware that war is about materiel, not angry people and legions of soldiers.

It wasn't really untill wwII that the rest of the world's military institutions caught on that the quickest way to win a war isn't by killing the enemy's soldiers.

But it seems like the war wagers have forgotten all this now. We're back to measured responses, police actions and interminable peace negotiating.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2007, 10:41:52 AM »
Look, If I say spouse abuse is wrong, and I go home and beat my wife everyday, I'm a hypocrit.

If I say spouse abuse is wrong, and I go home and beat my kids everyday, I'm not a hypocrit, just a scumb bag.

Agree?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2007, 10:47:24 AM »
jews and indians (either indian) and negroes are all human and as such have god given human rights.

There have been those throughout history that did not recognize these peoples as being human..

They were wrong.. They weren't always evil... they were just wrong.  

lazs

Offline Suave

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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2007, 11:12:55 AM »
And Shuckins is right about the quotes. That quote was attributed to Sherman when Sherman was still alive, and Sherman never disowned it. So we must conclude that he said it.

And Lee never wrote or published memiors, and from what I gather, didn't want to discuss or stir up the past. It was over, and that was good enough for him.

And from what I've learned about Lee, judging from his actions and statements durring the war, and this is just my amature opinion, he wanted the war to be over possibly more than he wanted to win.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2007, 11:37:00 AM »
Hmm now you got me thinking.

Why do you speculate that Lee continued to press the attack at gettysburg even against his brightest and most trusted general's (Longstreet) advise?

Longstreet's position, and he was right, was that the northern army was in a perfect position. They wanted the south to attack. And that the confederate army should redeploy and fight on more favorable ground.

By the 3rd day all seven corps of the federal army was there and having taken all the high ground and observation points they held a broad advantage, even though the numbers were roughly equal. Lee had to realize this, indeed his general's did protest.


What possessed him to order Picketts charge in such unfavorable circumstances?

The only thing I can think of is that he knew that time was on the US army's side. The North would only get stronger, and each time he met them the fight would be more and more difficult.

He had the whole of the federal army before him, and I speculate that he knew if he didn't beat them there, he wasn't going to beat them. Or at least, if he didn't beat them there, it was going to be a long and bloody war.