Author Topic: Buffs vs. CVs need to be nerfed (Read 3642 times)

E25280 · « **Reply #45 on:** March 25, 2007, 03:51:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Brooke
I just looked up what the US WWII carriers took to sink. Here's what I found.

US Aircraft-carrier Hardness

Source: Wikipedia

Ship sunk, damage taken, lbs explosive

Yorktown (CV-5), 1 bomb, 551 lbs

I can't speak to the others off the top of my head, but this one is simply ridiculously wrong.

Tango · « **Reply #46 on:** March 25, 2007, 03:55:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
I can't speak to the others off the top of my head, but this one is simply ridiculously wrong.

I found this.

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/25.pdf

According to it, there were 3 bomb hits and 4 torpedos total.

E25280 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:09:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tango
I found this.

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/25.pdf

According to it, there were 3 bomb hits and 4 torpedos total.

Great find, Tango. And yet it only hints at the fact that the Yorktown entered the Midway battle still damaged from the Coral Sea engagement.

"The Commanding officer, in reference (a), estimated the bomb that hit No. 1 elevator to be a delayed-action projectile type bomb, weighing about 800 lbs. and measuring approximately 12 inches in diameter. This description does not fit any of the currently available data on Japanese bombs. The distance of travel and the extent of damage corresponds with that observed on this ship in the Coral Sea battle of May 8, 1942. The bomb performance also corresponds closely to that of the bombs which struck CALIFORNIA and CURTISS. Damange in the above three cases was concluded to have been caused by a 250 Kg. (550 lbs.) "semi-armor piercing" bomb with delayed action fuses of the type recovered at Schofield Barracks after the raid of Dec. 7, 1941." (Bold emphasis mine).

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #48 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:14:56 PM »

who exactly is it that counts, weighs and then records the bombs that sink thier ship?

hubsonfire · « **Reply #49 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:23:42 PM »

Flipper. Dolphins are mad smart.

Tango · « **Reply #50 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:27:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
who exactly is it that counts, weighs and then records the bombs that sink thier ship?

They same guys that try to figure out ways to defend a ship from these attacks?

FiLtH · « **Reply #51 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:34:41 PM »

Ya I understand bombs did in fact start fires and such and vessels sank from being bombed. But usually it was the result of either a fire that gutted the ship, forced abandonment, blew ammo stores, or was scuttled.

I just wish the torpedo meant more in the game.

Chalenge · « **Reply #52 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:36:03 PM »

Yeah! How dare anyone attack a field without a clear cut exit strategy!

Tango · « **Reply #53 on:** March 25, 2007, 04:36:38 PM »

That report preety much shows that it was the last 2 torpedos that killed the Yorktown.

It would be nice to see more torpedo runs.

E25280 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 25, 2007, 05:03:29 PM »

The only way we will see more torpedo runs is if they turn off the proximity fuses in the 5" batteries. Torp runs have no chance of success if they are detected and there is a 5" that can be brought to bear, IMO.

Brooke · « **Reply #55 on:** March 25, 2007, 05:57:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
I can't speak to the others off the top of my head, but this one is simply ridiculously wrong.

Yep, that is completely wrong. I will fix it. Thanks for spotting that.

Brooke · « **Reply #56 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:04:40 PM »

Here is the updated data, correcting the data for Yorktown.

US Aircraft-carrier Hardness

Source: Wikipedia

Ship sunk, damage taken, lbs explosive

Lexington (CV-2), 2 torpedoes and 3 bombs, 3503 lbs
Yorktown (CV-5), 2 torpedoes and 3 bombs, 3503 lbs
Wasp (CV-7), 2 sub torpedoes, 1786 lbs
Hornet (CV-8), 3 torpedoes and 5 bombs, 5530 lbs

This assumes a bomb hit is 551 lbs (usual for D3A), a torp hit is 925 lbs (assuming largest-warhead type 91 for B5N), and a sub torp hit is 893 lbs (type 95).

Average lbs taken to sink is thus 3580 lbs.

Carriers that weren't sunk, where ";" is used to denote separate attacks, in between which there is perhaps some or even a lot of repair.

Saratoga (CV-3), 6 bombs
Enterprise (CV-6), 3 bombs; 2 bombs; kamikaze
Essex (CV-9), kamikaze
Yorktown (CV-10), bomb
Intrepid (CV-11), torpedo; kamikaze; kamikaze
Franklin (CV-13), Kamikaze; bomb; kamikaze

Oldman731 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 25, 2007, 07:07:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
The only way we will see more torpedo runs is if they turn off the proximity fuses in the 5" batteries. Torp runs have no chance of success if they are detected and there is a 5" that can be brought to bear, IMO.

I think this may be true. Can't think of any successful airborne torpedo attacks on US ships after prox fuses were introduced.

- oldman (not to mention that our carrier task forces were just a bit heavier in escorts and CAP by then)

AWwrgwy · « **Reply #58 on:** March 26, 2007, 01:22:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Brooke
Here is the updated data, correcting the data for Yorktown.

US Aircraft-carrier Hardness

Source: Wikipedia

Ship sunk, damage taken, lbs explosive

Lexington (CV-2), 2 torpedoes and 3 bombs, 3503 lbs
Yorktown (CV-5), 2 torpedoes and 3 bombs, 3503 lbs
Wasp (CV-7), 2 sub torpedoes, 1786 lbs
Hornet (CV-8), 3 torpedoes and 5 bombs, 5530 lbs

This assumes a bomb hit is 551 lbs (usual for D3A), a torp hit is 925 lbs (assuming largest-warhead type 91 for B5N), and a sub torp hit is 893 lbs (type 95).

Yorktown was hit by 3 bombs, 2 torpedoes and ultimately sunk by a Japanese Submarine while under tow.

Hornet was hit by 2 suicide crashes, 7 bombs and 3 torpedoes dropped by Japanese aircraft and was abandoned. To prevent capture, U.S. destroyers fired 9 torpedoes at it and over 300 5 in. shells. She was finally sunk by 4 long-lance torpedoes fired from Japanese destroyers the next day.

As an aside, U.S. torpedoes were notoriously unreliable at this time and, I read somewhere, there was a certain amount of disgust with the ability on the destroyer's gunner's performance after this incident.

Wasp was sunk by 3 torpedoes fired from a Sub.

The Wasp and Lexington actually were lost due to gas-fume explosions deep within the ships.

Also, U.S. Carrier doctrine did not call for an armored flight deck. There was worry about it making them to top heavy and unstable as well as making them easier to repair if damaged. I believe the main hanger deck was armored.

Don't use Wikipedia as a source.

wrngway

halcyon · « **Reply #59 on:** March 26, 2007, 03:13:25 AM »

Wind, sure. Bomb accuracy changes, okay. High alt bombing changes yeah yeah yeah.

Still doesn't stop someone from dive bombing B-26s.
And whoever said you need 5k-10k for the bombs to arm is wrong.
I see CVs dying to buffs dive bombing them everytime I fly a marine map.