Explanation please

[humble]

I'm not arguing the math at all or downplaying all the variables that come into play. My comment was simply that the heavier plane carries greater momentum and stored energy then the lighter one and within certain parameters will therefor "zoom" better. At no time was my reference to the theory of relativity intended as the mathematically correct formula to calculate zoom. Obviously we're not dealing with a "closed system" but the underlying theory that energy is never "lost" is fundemental to understanding why the heavier plane zooms better. It seems that Rastar and a few others dont understand that the "zoom" they see is in fact correct modeling (in the broader sense).....

[RASTER]

Oh gosh dont run my way humble, those formula are far to simple. Nothings been said about the formula for loss of inertia due to a incorrectly trimmed rudder. See what happens when the pilot corrects for attitude 3 times rather than 2 during his transition to climb. If the pilot touchs the controls, the plane slows down in RL. Mentally imagine for every light touch of the controls that a plane is looses 10knots of speed and a heavy hand goes off the scale. Where does that put the inertia or energy during that gut wrenching transition to climb. That black out uses up a lot of energy.

I am not an expert here but I try to make the attacker use there controls as much as possible. If I can bank turn without using my elevator and make the attacker pull his hard to try and lead for a shot, it is my belief that he has lost sufficient inertia for me to extend away. This may not be true in AH but it is in RL.

RASTER

[Vad]

Tango and BadBoy, you are wrong too. Your analysis shows that yhe plane with greate mass will zoom climb WORSE.

T/m - D/m - g*sin(theta) = a

When we zoom climb acceleration will be:

a= T/m - D/m - g


T > D in climb , it's obvious. If T
So, positive part of the equation above is (T-D)/m , which gives us less deceleration than g. Clear that this part of equation MORE for the plane with less mass.

For two similar planes with different mass we have the same T and D, let say T=10, D=9. g=10.

m1=10
m2=100;

Acceleartion of the first plane will be
a = (10-9)/10 -10 = -9.9

Acceleration for the second will be
a = (10 - 9)100 -10 = -9.99

Negatiive accelearion (deceleration) of the second plane will be MORE then the first.


Sorry, but your analysis is working only if T < D (thrust less than drag) and only for the period of time till speed drops to the level where D becomes equal to T.

It means that if you have two similar planes with different weight flying in level (T=D), and they try to zoom climb plane with more mass will zoom WORSE. But if you dive before climb to get more speed (in this case D>T) and climb,  heavier  plane will zoom BETTER for short period of time.

Exactly what Ack-Ack did!

[humble]

Originally posted by RASTER
Oh gosh dont run my way humble, those formula are far to simple. Nothings been said about the formula for loss of inertia due to a incorrectly trimmed rudder. See what happens when the pilot corrects for attitude 3 times rather than 2 during his transition to climb. If the pilot touchs the controls, the plane slows down in RL. Mentally imagine for every light touch of the controls that a plane is looses 10knots of speed and a heavy hand goes off the scale. Where does that put the inertia or energy during that gut wrenching transition to climb. That black out uses up a lot of energy.

I am not an expert here but I try to make the attacker use there controls as much as possible. If I can bank turn without using my elevator and make the attacker pull his hard to try and lead for a shot, it is my belief that he has lost sufficient inertia for me to extend away. This may not be true in AH but it is in RL.

RASTER

And exactly how much stick time do you have IRL??

[FrodeMk3]

You know, I think we can all remember how mad we were at the first time we tried to go up with a vet who had alot more E and an advantage...I can see, from that context blackdog, where you're coming from. But you have to realise that fighting in the vertical is what some of these planes/Pilots do very well.

Ok, you stated that the 38 did a level turn to come back to you after the merge. What you did was go into a zoom climb. I'm thinking that you went into your climb soon enough after the merge, that the 38 Did a Chandelle, which would both bleed speed for the turn, yet let him Z-climb with you. The 38's power loading, plus the momentum he has, would have let him catch you.

[dtango]

Vad:

Check your calcs.  The 2nd plane at m=100 should be -.09 not -9.99.

T - D - W * Sin (Theta) = W/g * dV/dt  (or m * a)

This is the generalized equation for an airplane in any type of climb.

You can be in a zoom climb where T < D.  Typically this occurs when you've pulled up into a climb from out of a dive.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Vad
It means that if you have two similar planes with different weight flying in level (T=D), and they try to zoom climb plane with more mass will zoom WORSE. But if you dive before climb to get more speed (in this case D>T) and climb,  heavier  plane will zoom BETTER for short period of time.

Yes, that's true, and don't forget that in Aces High, all of those factors are being updated and re-evaluated at a high frequency, so that all the changes in thrust, drag and weight are being taken into account so that the correct dynamics will always be present in the game at any time to a high degree of fidelity.

Understanding how those factors interact is the secret to exploiting them. It is the reason why the more experienced players are able to use zoom climbs so successfully.

Exactly what Ack-Ack did.

Yep, diving before a zoom climb is an excellent way to hide your true energy state, because inexperienced players often judge your energy by observing your altitude alone. Not only will you have stored energy that your opponent may not have anticipated, but your initial zoom will be better. Normally, those two factors are enough to clinch the fight.  


Badboy

[RASTER]

And exactly how much stick time do you have IRL??

Said in another way. Let me ask you a question because I am not really sure with AH. If you are piloting a AH Spitfire at maximum level speed and trim your rudder a degree off centre, does your speed drop. IRL if will. It then reasons that moving the elevator a degree and the rudder a degree regardless of speed attained or lost in pitching the planes axis, that the plane will suffer an even greater loss simply because you touched two control surfaces. If the pilot banks, rudders and pitch's the plane a single degree on all surfaces, then banks pitchs and yaws the plane back to the original attitude, the plane will have lost inertia, and that amount of speed will be significant. IRL. In AH I have not seen this.

One more observation, if the pilots are face to face,  level and at maximum velocity at the point of engagement, one pilot dives the other climbs, then the pilot who dived has used up energy of position by reducing his altitude. As there is no such thing as perpetual energy, to regain the original alititude the pilot who dove will need more energy than originally contained to regain that original altitude. Energy will have been lost not only in the changing direction but in all kinds of ways including friction and wind shears.  There is only so much available altitude in a zoom climb. If the pilot dives 1000k then he will have to remove 1000k from the other side of the equation. However, if in a jet that whole concept changes where the zoom climb is not a factor of inertia but of thrust.



RASTER

[Vad]

Originally posted by dtango
Vad:

Check your calcs.  The 2nd plane at m=100 should be -.09 not -9.99.

T - D - W * Sin (Theta) = W/g * dV/dt  (or m * a)

This is the generalized equation for an airplane in any type of climb.

You can be in a zoom climb where T < D.  Typically this occurs when you've pulled up into a climb from out of a dive.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Tango, you don't like mass
OK, your eqution:

T - D - W*sin(theta) = (W / g) *v', where v' = dV/dt

The second eqution is m*g = W.

Ok, from the first eqution in zoom climb we have (theta=pi/2, sin(theta) =1):

T - D - W = (W/g) * v' =>
v' = (T - D)*g/W - W/(W/g)
v' = (T-D)*g/W - g

If m= W/g from the second eqution than
v' = (T-D)/m - g


For the second example from my previous post we have:

v' = (10-9)/100 - 10
v' = 1/100 -10
v'=0.01 - 10
v'=-9.99

dV/dt = -9.99

Deceleration  = 9.99

9.99>9.9 => massive plane will decelerate faster.

About T

[dtango]

You're right Vad.  I forgot the parans .

I agree with you regarding all the physics you've mentioned.  As Badboy says the smart pilots are the ones who know how to exploit the dynamic relationships such as the one expressed in:

T - D - W*Sin (Theta) = m*a

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Vad]

Badboy, I know all that what you are saying. Your conclusions and advices are absolutely correct.

I just tried to prove obvious for experience pilot facts using elementary physics.  

And according to physics it is not enough to be in heavier fighter to outclimb lighter fighter, you have to dive before climb to get you speed MORE than you can get in level flight (thrust must be less than drag). Otherwise P38 will not outclimb Spit.

It's not obvious for everybody as I can see.

[RASTER]

I can't believe I just read that. Then perpetual motion is possible accordingly?

RASTER:

[Vad]

Originally posted by RASTER
I can't believe I just read that. Then perpetual motion is possible accordingly?

RASTER:

Raster, I see your point. Yes, you are corect, there is no way to get to the same alt  if you dive before. But nobody care of absolute alt which can be achived , we are talking about relative positon of two planes. And we are talking about how faster I can decrease distance between two planes.
Yes, if I'm flying alone and level, and want to climb to the maximum possible alt there is no sense to dive before (ok, we are assuming that level flight speed is more than optimal climb speed otherwise it's not true).
But if you need to short distance between two planes in some conditions it's better to dive. Yes, if you dive the maximum alt you can reach will be less but the initial speed of your climb will be better than your opponent, and you have chance to catch him.

Rule of thumb: heaver fighter has advantage in climb if she has speed more than maximum speed in level flight on this alt. Lighter fighter has advantage in climb if speed is less than maximum speed of level flight on this alt.

In that exact fight it happened that both of them dived before merge, both of them had thrust less than drag, and in this situation heavier fighter has advantage in climb.

Perpetual motion has nothing with that.

[SgtPappy]

i've attempted to move from the spitty to the F4U (with pretty good success) to the P-38.

Since i've ever downloaded this game, i've wanted to fly the P-38. now, i'm far from a good pilot as i don't exactly have the money or time for the MA, whough i wish i did. anywho, i do just great in the nooby 8 player arenas lol and im really starting to get more kills in the 38.

after tonnes of speculation, i've wondered what kind of tactics i should use against those annoying spit 16's and those scissor maniacs, the F4U's. i've managed to out scissor all the ones i've come across so far in my trusy P-38J, but i'm pretty sure i'll encounter better ones. The spitfire is less of a problem, but how does one outscissor a Corsair in a P-38J?

*ackack! teh n00b needs j00!