Explanation please

[blackdog68]

Co-alt merge, myself in Spit9 doing 320 IAS versus P-38(not L, we are in Mid-War) claiming to be at 415 IAS.  About 10K of alt.

After HO pass, guns quiet, turn around to look immediately and P-38 is banking hard in a level turn.  Easy kill, or so I thought.  I start to zoom climb to come over the top, next thing I know P-38 is turned and 800-600-400 off my 6 while I'm still climbing before her cannons do the rest.

OK...so what's going on here.  I say warp.  P-38 pilot states she "ruddered to bleed speed, dropped his flaps, turned 180 degrees (apparently on a dime), and then climbed up to me".

OK, rudder and flaps bleeds E.  As does the 180.  So how did she match my zoom climb?

I say warp.

But she can't let it go.  And can't duplicate her feat either.

[BigR]

i say you ran into a much better pilot than yourself. It happens.

Without a film, theres no way we can know.

[Spatula]

Without a film of it, its all total subjective speculation. There are a number of possibilities:
1. Lead turn. Just because he appeared to get around "180" fast doesnt mean he pulled extremely high Gs.
2. The E states at the merge were not in your favor, either from you having less speed that you thought or claim, and the enemy having more than you thought.
3. Combination of both the above.
4. You started to go straight up too early (or too late) and thus slowed down right above the P38. Try extending a little if the range is too close, but dont leave it too long as they'll regain speed. Timing and E estimation is everything. Or better yet, start a climbing turn above him which forces him to keep pulling Gs with the nose high to get the shot. This is a much safer option than just going straight up and over. Same result and easier to reverse back onto them.

Note that at the top of your immelman your almost stationary and sitting there, so any velocity from the P38 will carry it towards you. Also you need more E than the P38 does to go up AND then over and still have control. And yet you need even more E than that if you hope to stay outside of about 800 yards (the max gun range). Failure to get that E advantage leaves you a sitting duck for a few seconds.
Also a P38 is extremely stable at slow speeds in the vertical with its counter-rotating props. It experiences no counter-rotational force from the engine/prop as a single engined/single prop aircraft does. So it wont have the tendency to start to twist and get into an accelerated stall/spin when it gets too slow for the wings and rudder to counter the rotational force the prop/engine exerts.

Far too many claims of "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" claims are made. Not one of them has ever came with a film which shows anything out of the ordinary.

[Ack-Ack]

I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.  

I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough.  I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.

BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you.  No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.  

If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge.  I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo.  And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul.  The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.  

After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb.  Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical.  So,  you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time.  As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo.  At this point, I had two choices.  1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six.  I decided to go with option #2.

As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX.  The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds.  Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.

The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge.  Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.


Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked.  It's really that simple.


ack-ack

[REP0MAN]

pwn

[rpm]

I should have known it was ack-ack in the 38.

Nube got pwnd by a better pilot, end of story.

[Dadano]

Well put Akak.

Film it, grab a drink, watch it, grab another drink, and put it into practice.

You will be carrying home Akak scalps before ya know it:)

Good luck!:aok

[hubsonfire]

I've been shooting down a girl?!

[38ruk]

Excellent explaination AKAK,  some people have a hard time understanding "the vertical".

[Vad]

Killed juvenile on arena, came here and killed him again.
Akak, do you know the word "mercy"?

[Xargos]

"She" maybe referring to the plane, not the pilot.

[Vad]

BTW, Akak, could you explain what he had to do to beat you in that situation.
Or, in other words, what would you do being in Spit9 against really good pilot in P38.

[TexInVa]

Originally posted by Vad
BTW, Akak, could you explain what he had to do to beat you in that situation.
Or, in other words, what would you do being in Spit9 against really good pilot in P38.

Turn and make him/her/it bleed energy. Try to get the 38 slow.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by blackdog68 I start to zoom climb to come over the top, next thing I know P-38 is turned and 800-600-400 off my 6 while I'm still climbing before her cannons do the rest.

You lost any hopes of winning with this move.   Unless you have more E than the 38, diving is better than climbing.

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.  

I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough.  I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.

BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you.  No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.  

If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge.  I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo.  And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul.  The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.  

After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb.  Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical.  So,  you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time.  As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo.  At this point, I had two choices.  1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six.  I decided to go with option #2.

As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX.  The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds.  Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.

The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge.  Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.


Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked.  It's really that simple.


ack-ack

blkdg68 is a fun person to watch on 200.   He appeared out of nowhere and was spewing drivel on 200, Friday night.   He seems to be someone who is a shades and has a chip on his shoulder.

AKAK, the sad thing about this is, he won't learn from it.   Most people don't realize what the 38 is capable of.   I've flown it enough and probably know 40% of it's ability.

[Warchief]

Now as someone who has faced Ack Ack he is just that good in the 38. I have seen him warp and according to him he relogged and didnt see him warp the next fight all I saw was a 38 pulling some amazing moves and me going OH ***** I know who this is!!!!!!

Blkdg you got owned plain and simple. Ack Ack is one of the best 38 Fighter guys in the game.